Joseph for the second time calls out the team

[Tony-OH]

3 hours ago, JourneyFan said:

Nice to finally see someone who's not Adam Jones get his thoughts out there. And I wholeheartedly agree with him.

 

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I was just thinking that Jones has been oddly quiet this season.

It's pretty clear that Jones is done here. Joseph is the one standing up and being a leader and calling guys out and telling it like it is for a culture change. 

This is why Joseph is going to make a great manager one day. He's smart, he knows the game, he's good with the media, and he's willing to call things as he see it. 

BTW, I don't believe a culture change happens without new leadership in the organization from top to bottom. I don't see how you bring Buck an his coaches back after this. 

Besides the team being sold to a Baltimore investor, the best thing we can hear is that ownership has decided to try something new and brings in a new President of Baseball Operations who is allowed to shape the organization as he see fit. 

The only thing that can help the Orioles now is a complete makeover.

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

Last point first: I agree.    It does help if you’re at least a decent contributor to the team, and Caleb’s contributions this year are minimal.   But as a veteran who was on some winning teams, I would still expect his words to carry some weight.

Back on Dempsey, I don’t think you can multiply Joseph’s WAR to project him out to 24 years and compare him to Dempsey.    He wasn’t good enough to be in the majors before age 28, and I doubt he’ll be in the majors too many more years.  Dempsey was a much better player, who was worth 11.9 rWAR from ages 28-32, the period in which Joseph has accumulated his 4.3 rWAR.

Yeah, but everyone's "contributions" this year are minimal  

Dempsey was a better player, but Dempsey had 800~ more plate appearances in those seasons.  I'm not saying Joseph would have had equal WAR for those years if he had the same amount of plate appearances but it's hard to comp a full time starter to a platoon guy when it comes to WAR.  Still, Dempsey has the edge in OPS over the course of that span, .688 to .624.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Ruzious said:

The message is fair, but I think it falls flat when it's from a veteran OPSing under .600 - unless he makes it clear that he's the first one who deserves to be fired.   If he grew up with great veteran leadership in 2014, why isn't he able - at age 32 - to provide that type of leadership that he speaks of?   

Do you really think he's talking about player leadership?

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Is leadership directly tied to OPS?

Yeah, these shots at Joseph's production are weak. Joseph is what is as a player at this stage in his career, and I'm not taking up for his on field play, but it certainly is not because he doesn't care or its not trying, which sounds like is a big part of the issue.

Joseph is giving fans a glimpse to what is going on and some fans want to snipe at him because he's not performing well this year. Their comments are ridiculous and misplaced anger if you ask me.

[atomic]

Also the Red Sox seem to be doing fine with negative WAR from their catchers.  These days it is hard to find a productive offensive catcher. 

[Ruzious]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Do you really think he's talking about player leadership?

I have no interest in getting into an extended conversation with you.  Say what you mean.

[Ruzious]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

Yeah, these shots at Joseph's production are weak. Joseph is what is as a player at this stage in his career, and I'm not taking up for his on field play, but it certainly is not because he doesn't care or its not trying, which sounds like is a big part of the issue.

Joseph is giving fans a glimpse to what is going on and some fans want to snipe at him because he's not performing well this year. They're comments are ridiculous and misplaced anger if you ask me.

It's not a shot at him.  It's pointing out that comments like his coming from a low performing player are not likely to be very effective.  

[Tony-OH]

59 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

If the rest of the team had played well, then a weak hitting catcher is not exposed as much.

So Caleb is part of the problem, just one of many many player, I agree.

I do not see a solid #1 catcher in the system at any level.

Caleb doesn't dictate his playing time. At this point in his carer, I agree, he's not a number one catcher, but he's far from part of the problem here. He's a guy being asked to carry a load when he's probably better suited to being a backup. That doesn't take away from his leadership qualities and desire to win.

No one will work harder and try to make others better than Caleb, but it takes two to tango. I applaud him for telling it lie it is when he's interviewed. This season has become a joke and everyone that is part of it should be embarrassed. Clearly Caleb is and he's pissed over the lack of leadership and effort he's seeing.

Not sure people think this is wrong or want to take shots at him. Would it be better coming from an Adam Jones because he's producing a bit, sure, but I don't think Jones cares at all anymore about this franchise or this team.

[Tony-OH]

45 minutes ago, maybenxtyr said:

The fact that the management of this team has made it through the season is simply astonishing.

I think that says more about the dysfunction of the current ownership than anything at this point. With all of these reports coming out again about how not even MLB knows who's in charge means no one can make any decisions about anyone. So they just keep it as it is and play out this embarrassing string.

[Redskins Rick]

Just now, Tony-OH said:

Caleb doesn't dictate his playing time. At this point in his carer, I agree, he's not a number one catcher, but he's far from part of the problem here. He's a guy being asked to carry a load when he's probably better suited to being a backup. That doesn't take away from his leadership qualities and desire to win.

No one will work harder and try to make others better than Caleb, but it takes two to tango. I applaud him for telling it lie it is when he's interviewed. This season has become a joke and everyone that is part of it should be embarrassed. Clearly Caleb is and he's pissed over the lack of leadership and effort he's seeing.

Not sure people think this is wrong or want to take shots at him. Would it be better coming from an Adam Jones because he's producing a bit, sure, but I don't think Jones cares at all anymore about this franchise or this team.

Sadly, i think its the culture of the internet and the desire to take shots at everybody. Its not just in here, MASN and FACEBOOK are loaded with haters, even back when the team was winning.

[Redskins Rick]

Just now, Tony-OH said:

I think that says more about the dysfunction of the current ownership than anything at this point. With all of these reports coming out again about how not even MLB knows who's in charge means no one can make any decisions about anyone. So they just keep it as it is and play out this embarrassing string.

Don't you think Rosenthal was a bit over the top with his article, almost troll like?

Do you really think MLB is worried about the Orioles being dysfunctional?

They sure didnt give a crap for 14 years of pure hell, here, and Peter hiring guys like Syd Thrifft and Duke's brother to run the team.

[Tony-OH]

31 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Thanks, Frobby.  If you extrapolate Caleb's 4.3 career WAR over 24 seasons like Dempsey had, you'd probably wind up somewhere in the same ballpark.  25 WAR over 24 seasons isn't much.  I'm not saying Dempsey was a bad player, I agree with your assessment that he was solid, especially for the time period.

My overriding point is that you don't have to be a WAR God to be a leader.  

Joseph is a similar player to Dempsey, but I'd give Dempsey the edge due to the amount of years he was able to play vs the relatively short career of Joseph due to his late blooming status. I agree with a lot of what you saying though.

[Moose Milligan]

10 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Yeah, these shots at Joseph's production are weak. Joseph is what is as a player at this stage in his career, and I'm not taking up for his on field play, but it certainly is not because he doesn't care or its not trying, which sounds like is a big part of the issue.

Joseph is giving fans a glimpse to what is going on and some fans want to snipe at him because he's not performing well this year. They're comments are ridiculous and misplaced anger if you ask me.

Exactly.  It'd be one thing if Joseph was a star player with a .900 OPS in previous years and having a down year but he's not.  He is what he is, I am not sure what people expect.  He plays hard, he has a good attitude.  He's a guy that, I believe, has maxed out his God given abilities at the ML level.  

[atomic]

3 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

It's not a shot at him.  It's pointing out that comments like his coming from a low performing player are not likely to be very effective.  

I don't think it comes off as meaningful from a player who has performed so poorly. No one is going to listen to a fellow player who isn't successful now and hasn't been in the past.  Yeah I get it most of the players have checked out and the manager and GM are not caring either as they don't have jobs in 2 weeks.   The team has treated Jones poorly and Davis doesn't care one bit about anything and there are no other veteran players who were here last season. 

I think most of us know they have to clean house with regards to manager, coaches and GM.  Most of the players shouldn't be on the team next year.   Pay Davis what you need to pay him to get him to give up being on the team. 

I would say we need new owners.  Ownership has been invisible while this has been going on.  I know Peter is sick but his sons shouldn't be hiding from the media.  They should have fired Buck in April.  They should tell the fans about the teams plans going forward.  I think the lack of leadership from ownership is something that needs to be fixed first. 

Maybe the sons don't have leadership abilities.  John Angelos is supposed to be the person in charge. He needs to either step up and run the team or hand the reigns over to someone who can make the decisions.  

[Tony-OH]

11 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Don't you think Rosenthal was a bit over the top with his article, almost troll like?

Do you really think MLB is worried about the Orioles being dysfunctional?

They sure didnt give a crap for 14 years of pure hell, here, and Peter hiring guys like Syd Thrifft and Duke's brother to run the team.

Nope, not in the least bit. I think those people who think Rosenthal has some kind of ax to grind with the Orioles and "makes things up" or "exaggerate" them is really disrespectful to a guy who is known for being a good and fair journalist. He focuses  a lot on the Orioles because he is local and I'm sure has good sources in and out of the organization. 

People can believe what they want, but there is a lot of smoke coming from a  lot of sources, just like when I put my piece out earlier this year, and if they want to ignore them all and just assume the right things are being done, well that's their choice.

I will withhold final judgment until I see what happens this offseason, but if there are not sweeping change from President of Baseball Operations on down, I'll be very concerned.