I really want to keep Villar (Update: Traded to Marlins for LHS Easton Lucas)

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

He’s said to have full control. Nontendering a 3 WAR player would be a stupid baseball decision. One that would only be done by a moron owner. 
 

as I mentioned before, if you can’t get good value extend him for 2-3 years at 6.5 per. Give us something worthwhile to watch.

Also a Cashner like return for Villar would be an insult. Hopefully Elias feels the same way

Full control doesn't mean he sets the budget.  Not even I would suggest that.  If ownership sets a budget that precludes him from keeping Villar how is that on Elias?

[Roll Tide]

14 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Full control doesn't mean he sets the budget.  Not even I would suggest that.  If ownership sets a budget that precludes him from keeping Villar how is that on Elias?

There’s absolutely no reason to set a budget so low that you can’t keeping arguably your best player.

you still have to sell tickets 

And giving him away or nontendering is stupid.

im fine if you can get value

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

There’s absolutely no reason to set a budget so low that you can’t keeping arguably your best player.

you still have to sell tickets 

And giving him away or nontendering is stupid.

im fine if you can get value

I can think of a good reason.

[Roll Tide]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

I can think of a good reason.

Saving money? The repercussion of being cheap is less attendance.

Dont know about you .. but I’m not paying (other than my MASN cable fee) to see a 56-70 million team that includes Davis and Cobb.

Especially if they dump Villar and trade Bundy for scraps. 

Most of the regular fees just won’t go. Then that’s more you have to encourage to come back later.

 

Im hoping Villar and Bundy are traded for value. 

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Saving money? The repercussion of being cheap is less attendance.

Dont know about you .. but I’m not paying (other than my MASN cable fee) to see a 56-70 million team that includes Davis and Cobb.

Especially if they dump Villar and trade Bundy for scraps. 

Most of the regular fees just won’t go. Then that’s more you have to encourage to come back later.

 

Im hoping Villar and Bundy are traded for value. 

I don't think the difference in net income from folks refusing to go to games because the team non-tendered Villar will equal the difference in salaries between Villar and his replacement.

As for me, I live in Florida so I rarely go to games.

[theocean]

20 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think the difference in net income from folks refusing to go to games because the team non-tendered Villar will equal the difference in salaries between Villar and his replacement.

As for me, I live in Florida so I rarely go to games.

Since when did so many people start rooting for a multi-million-dollar corporation to make a profit in a taxpayer funded stadium?

Villar at most will cost $10M next year. If they cut him, that money isn't going to go in a piggy bank until 2020-whatever when they break it open to sign Adley to an extension.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, theocean said:

Since when did so many people start rooting for a multi-million-dollar corporation to make a profit in a taxpayer funded stadium?

Villar at most will cost $10M next year. If they cut him, that money isn't going to go in a piggy bank until 2020-whatever when they break it open to sign Adley to an extension.

Where did you get that I was rooting for them to non-tender him to increase profits?

Seriously, how do you jump to that conclusion?

[Spl51]

5 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Where did you get that I was rooting for them to non-tender him to increase profits?

Seriously, how do you jump to that conclusion?

If you don't literally want owners to operate teams as a charity, then you are the enemy to these people. 

You certainly are free to stop watching if they non-tender Villar, I just don't feel the same sense of entitlement.

[Roll Tide]

11 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think the difference in net income from folks refusing to go to games because the team non-tendered Villar will equal the difference in salaries between Villar and his replacement.

As for me, I live in Florida so I rarely go to games.

If you think like a diehard that invests tons of your life on a fansite you probably don't relate to the regular fan. They will obviously go when the teams is winning. They might still go when they perceive the team is trying. I don't think the regular fan buys in "the rebuild" and probably doesn't invest time reading into the details like a knowledgeable poster like you. If the team nontenders Villar, I think there will be a negative impact from the fanbase. I think a sell off of Bundy and Mancini could make it even worse. Heck trading all three will probably be worse.

I have money to spend on sports and I prefer to spend it on football. Being a referee for 25 years, I love the game and prefer it to baseball. I will mention that I played softball for nearly 25 years of my adult life. So I love the diamond! But if I have to choose it would be football. The Colts when I was 12 .....In my late teens to early twenties, I had a season ticket plan until Peter Angelos started to get cheap and run the team into the ground with his group of yes men GMs.

 

5 hours ago, Spl51 said:

If you don't literally want owners to operate teams as a charity, then you are the enemy to these people. 

You certainly are free to stop watching if they non-tender Villar, I just don't feel the same sense of entitlement.

1) LOL ..... If you think these guys arent making money you are delusional. The team could easily have a $120-$130 million payroll even with attendance where it is now. And MASN is making money off the Nationals success.

2) Its not entitlement! Its entertainment and the dollars that people spend out of their budgets on it. Again nontendering a 4 WAR player makes no sense! To the casual fan it will be viewed as the team being cheap! Its only the fools that would buy that the Orioles are "Operating as a Charity". As was mentioned earlier ....Its not like they will save the money in a piggy bank for later, so dont be fooled!

I'm onboard with trading Villar and whomever else for fair value! If you cant get fair value give him a reasonable contract. If no one will trade for him then hes likely not getting a big contract in free agency. So them offer him an extension ....Something like 3 years at 6.5 million per. Its a reasonable contract, Villar has bounced around so perhaps he likes it here and will embrace the security .

Nontendering would be comparable to a DFA. Why would any GM do that to a 4 WAR player! They wouldn't!

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

If you think like a diehard that invests tons of your life on a fansite you probably don't relate to the regular fan. They will obviously go when the teams is winning. They might still go when they perceive the team is trying. I don't think the regular fan buys in "the rebuild" and probably doesn't invest time reading into the details like a knowledgeable poster like you. If the team nontenders Villar, I think there will be a negative impact from the fanbase. I think a sell off of Bundy and Mancini could make it even worse. Heck trading all three will probably be worse.

 

 

I think a fair bit of even the casual fanbase is aware of the "Trust the process" plan.  It worked for the Astros and the 76's also used the strategy.  We have also seen it being used in the NFL recently.  What I don't understand is why the Maryland football program is using it.

I don't honestly think your super casual fan is even going to pay attention to Villar being non-tendered, they are too busy being casual football and basketball fans during the offseason.

[weams]

6 hours ago, Spl51 said:

If you don't literally want owners to operate teams as a charity, then you are the enemy to these people. 

You certainly are free to stop watching if they non-tender Villar, I just don't feel the same sense of entitlement.

They will grow the business. It is not a public trust. But to be competitive means not being wasteful of resource like has occurred for the last 25 years. Spend money and assets when the times are appropriate and not when Jay Payton walks by. 

If they think it is a public trust then when the team does move, (any team)  don't clamor for a new one. 

[foxfield]

8 minutes ago, weams said:

They will grow the business. It is not a public trust. But to be competitive means not being wasteful of resource like has occurred for the last 25 years. Spend money and assets when the times are appropriate and not when Jay Payton walks by. 

If they think it is a public trust then when the team does move, (any team)  don't clamor for a new one. 

Sure, of course...franchise owners are owners of business... except when it comes to that stadium.  And then it's a public trust and needs public funds.  It's also why teams move.  It is nearly impossible to move stadiums and parking lots.  Upgrade "your" stadium or new city will buy us a new one.

 

However, you are correct, running a franchise as a business and doing so successfully requires not being wasteful of resources.  Under Angelos, that has not been the case.  However, I remain open that the current rebuild can work.  But as long as the Orioles are playing in a stadium provided by public funds.  Let's not completely allow the public trust idea to escape into darkness.

 

[Roll Tide]

5 minutes ago, weams said:

They will grow the business. It is not a public trust. But to be competitive means not being wasteful of resource like has occurred for the last 25 years. Spend money and assets when the times are appropriate and not when Jay Payton walks by. 

If they think it is a public trust then when the team does move, (any team)  don't clamor for a new one. 

Again Weams, if you think the money is being stashed for later this idea works. But, I don't think it is!

Angelos went cheap after getting burned by Albert Belle! If you are right they should have hundreds of millions stuffed away! I'm sure they don't!

I don't think anyone here is advocating for signing the "Jay Paytons of the world" Villar is not Jay Payton! PAyton had a 3.9WAR SEASON in 2002. The Orioles added him 5 years later (he was at best a 2 WAR player). # of Villars last 4 seasons were 4, 2.7, and 3.9. He admittedly had the bad season. But its clearly the one you throw out. You can likely get 3 WAR out of him for the next 3-4 seasons. If someone is not willing to pay value for that give him $6.5 per and let him play here. $6.5 per is not going to break the bank or hinder the team from spending in the future, thats if you believe they will bank the money to be used later.

[weams]

1 minute ago, foxfield said:

Sure, of course...franchise owners are owners of business... except when it comes to that stadium.  And then it's a public trust and needs public funds.  It's also why teams move.  It is nearly impossible to move stadiums and parking lots.  Upgrade "your" stadium or new city will buy us a new one.

 

However, you are correct, running a franchise as a business and doing so successfully requires not being wasteful of resources.  Under Angelos, that has not been the case.  However, I remain open that the current rebuild can work.  But as long as the Orioles are playing in a stadium provided by public funds.  Let's not completely allow the public trust idea to escape into darkness.

 

It's not a public trust. They will pay whatever is asked for the stadium, whether it is here or there. They will never ask the taxpayers for a dime. 

[weams]

1 minute ago, Roll Tide said:

Again Weams, if you think the money is being stashed for later this idea works. But, I don't think it is!

Angelos went cheap after getting burned by Albert Belle! If you are right they should have hundreds of millions stuffed away! I'm sure they don't!

I don't think anyone here is advocating for signing the "Jay Paytons of the world" Villar is not Jay Payton! PAyton had a 3.9WAR SEASON in 2002. The Orioles added him 5 years later (he was at best a 2 WAR player). # of Villars last 4 seasons were 4, 2.7, and 3.9. He admittedly had the bad season. But its clearly the one you throw out. You can likely get 3 WAR out of him for the next 3-4 seasons. If someone is not willing to pay value for that give him $6.5 per and let him play here. $6.5 per is not going to break the bank or hinder the team from spending in the future, thats if you believe they will bank the money to be used later.

I think none of us, none of us, know the financial situation for the ownership group or the mandate for money usage going forward. The models that I've seen used for this rebuild suggest that money will be spent when the team is competitive. Or maybe like the Tampa Bay/St Petersburg model, they will simply trade off any good players with two years left under control forever.