Baltimore Baseball: Astros and Cardinals

[weams]

https://www.baltimorebaseball.com/2019/10/11/orioles-envision-als-cardinals-lcs-predictions-babe-ruth-museum-event/

 

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Conventional wisdom is that Mike Elias would like to pattern the Orioles after the Houston Astros, the team he worked for before coming to Baltimore. He wouldn’t mind mimicking the Astros’ success, but the Orioles’ general manager has said more than once that he also admires the work of the St. Louis Cardinals.

Elias began working in baseball as a scout for the Cardinals in 2007, and it’s St. Louis’ long record of consistency that he admires.

The Cardinals, who begin their National League Championship Series against the Washington Nationals tonight at Busch Stadium, are much more of a realistic model for the Orioles than the Boston Red Sox or New York Yankees.

According to currentresults.com, St. Louis’ metropolitan area was 2.81 million last year, about 100,000 more than the Baltimore area’s 2.71 million.

 

[weams]

It’s gonna be tough though. I do believe the payroll will stay down for a good while. 

[Tx Oriole]

17 hours ago, weams said:

https://www.baltimorebaseball.com/2019/10/11/orioles-envision-als-cardinals-lcs-predictions-babe-ruth-museum-event/

 

 

Well if he goes after the Cards pattern then okay. 

[Tx Oriole]

3 hours ago, weams said:

It’s gonna be tough though. I do believe the payroll will stay down for a good while. 

That’s not the way to run the club. IMO 

[SteveA]

St Louis has been better at developing [their own] pitchers than Houston has.

[Moose Milligan]

St. Louis is always consistently good.  Remains to be seen if Houston can do the same.  I can see reasons for and against.  

Just win.  I don't care what "model" is followed.  And I doubt that Elias would NOT make a move he saw as a potentially good fit because it's not part of a "model."  

[sportsfan8703]

8 hours ago, SteveA said:

St Louis has been better at developing [their own] pitchers than Houston has.

HOU got burned with taking Pitchers Appel and Aiken high. HOU has been grow the bats and buy the arms since then. Using their prospect bats to acquire proven SP. 

I do think bats are safer picks over pitchers. Last draft we took lots of bats compared to pitchers. It could’ve been lots of factors at play, but I think it was a strategic decision. 

Not having the number one pick in next years’ draft means we’ll likely be deciding on the 2nd best SP, Torkelson, or other NCAA and HS bats.  

 

[Luke-OH]

31 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

HOU got burned with taking Pitchers Appel and Aiken high. HOU has been grow the bats and buy the arms since then. Using their prospect bats to acquire proven SP. 

I do think bats are safer picks over pitchers. Last draft we took lots of bats compared to pitchers. It could’ve been lots of factors at play, but I think it was a strategic decision. 

Not having the number one pick in next years’ draft means we’ll likely be deciding on the 2nd best SP, Torkelson, or other NCAA and HS bats.  

Houston has also been able to acquire arms late in the draft or cheaply in the international market and develop them into trade assets. I'm prepping for Rule 5 draft stuff and it's unbelievable how many good arms they have in the minors that came out of nowhere (10+ round pick or older international signees). They all throw hard and miss bats. 

[weams]

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/instagraphs/how-they-were-acquired-the-houston-astros-alcs-roster/

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Signed in Free Agency (6)

• Yuli Gurriel, 1B: July 2016 (Cuba) — Signed to five-year, $47.5 million contract.
• Josh Reddick, OF: November 2016 (LAD) — Signed to four-year, $52 million contract.
• Joe Smith, RP: December 2017 (CLE) — Signed to two-year, $15 million contract.
• Héctor Rondón, RP: December 2017 (CHC) — Signed to two-year, $8.5 million contract.
• Robinson Chirinos, December 2018 (TEX) — Signed to one-year, $5.75 million contract.
• Michael Brantley, OF: December 2018 (CLE) — Signed two-year, $32 million contract.

Total WAR: 10.9

 

[weams]

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/how-they-were-acquired-the-st-louis-cardinals-nlds-roster/

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Signed in Free Agency (4)

• Dexter Fowler, OF: December 2016 (CHC) — Signed to five-year, $82.5 million contract.
• Miles Mikolas, SP: December 2017 (Japan) — Signed to two-year, $15.5 million contract; signed four-year contract extension (2020-23) in February.
• Andrew Miller, RP: December 2018 (CLE) — Signed to two-year, $25 million contract ($12 million club option for 2021).
• Matt Wieters, February 2019 (WSN) — Signed to Minor League contract ($1.5 million salary).

Total WAR: 3.3

 

[DrungoHazewood]

10 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

St. Louis is always consistently good. 

The Cardinals trace their origins to the old St. Louis Browns of the AA.  They were great in the 1880s, bad from about 1890-1910, but haven't had more losing seasons than winning in a decade since then.

[spiritof66]

13 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

The Cardinals trace their origins to the old St. Louis Browns of the AA.  They were great in the 1880s, bad from about 1890-1910, but haven't had more losing seasons than winning in a decade since then.

Of the eight teams that survived the NL consolidation in 1900, the Cardinals were the last to win a pennant (in 1926). In their 34 years in the NL before '26, their highest finishes were third place, four times.

[DrungoHazewood]

11 hours ago, spiritof66 said:

Of the eight teams that survived the NL consolidation in 1900, the Cardinals were the last to win a pennant (in 1926). In their 34 years in the NL before '26, their highest finishes were third place, four times.

Which is a little odd because they were the beneficiaries of the syndicate agreement with Cleveland.  The reason the 1899 Spiders happened was that their owners teamed up with St. Louis' and transferred all the actual major leaguers to Missouri.  I would have thought they'd have gotten a significant boost from that,  but the bump only lasted a single year.

From 130 years away it looks like the Browns/Cards took a very long time to recover from the transition from the AA to the NL.  They went from maybe the best AA team to a .350 team in the NL.  They didn't consistently contend in the NL for almost 30 years.  In 1890 St. Louis was considered far out west.  Teams would go on long train trips to Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis.  I thought maybe the city just wasn't large enough to compete with the eastern teams and Chicago, but their population was as big as Baltimore in 1890, and was rapidly expanding. I guess it could have just been that they were run poorly.

[Redskins Rick]

3 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Which is a little odd because they were the beneficiaries of the syndicate agreement with Cleveland.  The reason the 1899 Spiders happened was that their owners teamed up with St. Louis' and transferred all the actual major leaguers to Missouri.  I would have thought they'd have gotten a significant boost from that,  but the bump only lasted a single year.

From 130 years away it looks like the Browns/Cards took a very long time to recover from the transition from the AA to the NL.  They went from maybe the best AA team to a .350 team in the NL.  They didn't consistently contend in the NL for almost 30 years.  In 1890 St. Louis was considered far out west.  Teams would go on long train trips to Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis.  I thought maybe the city just wasn't large enough to compete with the eastern teams and Chicago, but their population was as big as Baltimore in 1890, and was rapidly expanding. I guess it could have just been that they were run poorly.

This according to wiki, is the 1890 standings.

Just seams to be a bit off, if you know what I mean.

American Association	W	L	Pct.	GB	Home	Road
Louisville Colonels	88	44	0.667	—	57–13	31–31
Columbus Solons	79	55	0.590	10	47–22	32–33
St. Louis Browns	78	58	0.574	12	45–25	33–33
Toledo Maumees	68	64	0.515	20	40–27	28–37
Rochester Broncos	63	63	0.500	22	40–22	23–41
Baltimore Orioles	15	19	0.441	24	8–11	7–8
Syracuse Stars	55	72	0.433	30½	30–30	25–42
Philadelphia Athletics	54	78	0.409	34	36–36	18–42
Brooklyn Gladiators	26	73	0.263	45½	15–22	11–51

[spiritof66]

53 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

This according to wiki, is the 1890 standings.

Just seams to be a bit off, if you know what I mean.

American Association	W	L	Pct.	GB	Home	Road
Louisville Colonels	88	44	0.667	—	57–13	31–31
Columbus Solons	79	55	0.590	10	47–22	32–33
St. Louis Browns	78	58	0.574	12	45–25	33–33
Toledo Maumees	68	64	0.515	20	40–27	28–37
Rochester Broncos	63	63	0.500	22	40–22	23–41
Baltimore Orioles	15	19	0.441	24	8–11	7–8
Syracuse Stars	55	72	0.433	30½	30–30	25–42
Philadelphia Athletics	54	78	0.409	34	36–36	18–42
Brooklyn Gladiators	26	73	0.263	45½	15–22	11–51

Here's the explanation, from another Wikipedia entry:

The Baltimore Orioles team left the American Association after the 1889 season and started playing in the minor Atlantic Association. However, when the Brooklyn Gladiators ballclub folded mid-way through the 1890 season the Orioles returned to the AA to finish out the season.

When you add the Baltimore and Brooklyn teams' records, they make up a full AA season.