Poll: what do you think of the Astros’ punishment?

[bobmc]

14 hours ago, scOtt said:

 

The Black Sox scandal was investigated all during the 1920 season. Whatever board or panel ruled that all the players were not guilty. KML promptly banned all the players anyway after the 1920 season. There's a "pretty upset" commissioner. There's a precedent for Can_of_corn!

 

As an aside, it looks like he's trying to improve his "circle change".  

 

Back to further discussions

[24fps]

6 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

You misunderstand me.  I wasn't saying they shouldn't try and root it out.  I was saying stop acting like this is something new.

Fair enough. The way reaction to this is starting to snowball, I suspect Manfred isn’t going to have the option to consider the matter settled.

[DrungoHazewood]

In 1900 the Phillies buried some kind of electrical contraption under the third base coaches' box at Baker Bowl, with some wires exposed to the damp soil.  Someone in center field would watch the catcher's signs with opera glasses or a scope of some kind, and then relay electrical pulses to the box.  One shock for a fastball, two for an in-swinger, three for an out-swinger.

Later that season it was discovered that the Pirates had used a similar if less sophisticated system.

See page 52 of this link to the 1991 Baseball Research Journal for the whole story.  In the end the box was dug up during a game, and the league's response was essentially nothing.  Apparently on the basis of (and this will warm @Frobby's heart) minimus non curat lex (the law does not cure trivial matters).  No one was banned, nobody fined, and apparently the highly partisan papers of the day didn't say a whole lot about it.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, DrungoHazewood said:

In 1900 the Phillies buried some kind of electrical contraption under the third base coaches' box at Baker Bowl, with some wires exposed to the damp soil.  Someone in center field would watch the catcher's signs with opera glasses or a scope of some kind, and then relay electrical pulses to the box.  One shock for a fastball, two for an in-swinger, three for an out-swinger.

Later that season it was discovered that the Pirates had used a similar if less sophisticated system.

See page 52 of this link to the 1991 Baseball Research Journal for the whole story.  In the end the box was dug up during a game, and the league's response was essentially nothing.  Apparently on the basis of (and this will warm @Frobby's heart) minimus non curat lex (the law does not cure trivial matters).  No one was banned, nobody fined, and apparently the highly partisan papers of the day didn't say a whole lot about it.

Thanks, I've been trying to remember those details.

[mdbdotcom]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

In 1900 the Phillies buried some kind of electrical contraption under the third base coaches' box at Baker Bowl, with some wires exposed to the damp soil.  Someone in center field would watch the catcher's signs with opera glasses or a scope of some kind, and then relay electrical pulses to the box.  One shock for a fastball, two for an in-swinger, three for an out-swinger.

Later that season it was discovered that the Pirates had used a similar if less sophisticated system.

See page 52 of this link to the 1991 Baseball Research Journal for the whole story.  In the end the box was dug up during a game, and the league's response was essentially nothing.  Apparently on the basis of (and this will warm @Frobby's heart) minimus non curat lex (the law does not cure trivial matters).  No one was banned, nobody fined, and apparently the highly partisan papers of the day didn't say a whole lot about it.

It's never too late to punish people. Girardi should be suspended for a year.

[DrungoHazewood]

25 minutes ago, mdbdotcom said:

It's never too late to punish people. Girardi should be suspended for a year.

Ed Delehanty and Nap Lajoie were on the 1900 Phils.  I think they should be suspended from the Hall for five years.  Maybe we could knock 30 points off their batting averages.

While we're at it, let's retroactively fine everyone on the '00 Phils.  Track down Klondike Douglass' great-grandson and tell him we're coming for a $250 fine (that's like $8000 in 2020 dollars).

[Aristotelian]

On 1/18/2020 at 3:25 AM, Can_of_corn said:

You misunderstand me.  I wasn't saying they shouldn't try and root it out.  I was saying stop acting like this is something new.

Stealing signs isn't new. Stealing signs with an electronic system and banging on trash cans is new. This also goes against specific MLB directives (not "unwritten" rules. It is not the first time that rules violations have occurred but when they are they can and should be punished. This is not even like steroids where arguably everyone did and the league was complicit. Here you have a specific team gaining a huge advantage over everyone else. You can tell this is new because veterans like CC are outraged even more so than fans.

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Stealing signs isn't new. Stealing signs with an electronic system and banging on trash cans is new. This also goes against specific MLB directives (not "unwritten" rules. It is not the first time that rules violations have occurred but when they are they can and should be punished. This is not even like steroids where arguably everyone did and the league was complicit. Here you have a specific team gaining a huge advantage over everyone else. You can tell this is new because veterans like CC are outraged even more so than fans.

No it isn't.  Well it is new if you consider 1900 new. 

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

No it isn't.  Well it is new if you consider 1900 new. 

There is no evidence that the 1900 Phillies banged on trash cans.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

There is no evidence that the 1900 Phillies banged on trash cans.

And you will notice I didn't bold the part about trash cans. 

[Aristotelian]

59 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

And you will notice I didn't bold the part about trash cans. 

Right, you just quoted me out of context.

The few isolated examples you are coming up with over the last 100 years are the exceptions that prove the rule. Sabathia, Clevinger, Gausman, these guys have been around, they know the norms, and they are upset.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Aristotelian said:

Right, you just quoted me out of context.

The few isolated examples you are coming up with over the last 100 years are the exceptions that prove the rule. Sabathia, Clevinger, Gausman, these guys have been around, they know the norms, and they are upset.

How so?  Do you think the trash can part is the deal breaker?

These "Isolated examples" are just the ones that have been reported.  You don't think these are the only ones right?  Do you think that no one between 1900 and 1951 thought to do this?  That no one from the 60's Indian teams until the White Sox did it?  That no one from 90's did it?  That the first team of the new millennium that did it was the Red Sox?

Did you see the picture of the sign hanging in clubhouses that I posted?  Notice how it didn't mention punishing players?  They specifically left off player punishment when they posted those LAST YEAR.  You can't go and retroactively change that.

[Aristotelian]

54 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

How so?  Do you think the trash can part is the deal breaker?

These "Isolated examples" are just the ones that have been reported.  You don't think these are the only ones right?  Do you think that no one between 1900 and 1951 thought to do this?  That no one from the 60's Indian teams until the White Sox did it?  That no one from 90's did it?  That the first team of the new millennium that did it was the Red Sox?

Did you see the picture of the sign hanging in clubhouses that I posted?  Notice how it didn't mention punishing players?  They specifically left off player punishment when they posted those LAST YEAR.  You can't go and retroactively change that.

I think you are just being contrarian. Good day to you, sir.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I think you are just being contrarian. Good day to you, sir.

I love the name calling that goes on around here. 

I'm being realistic.  You can't after the fact punish a bunch of players that are protected by a strong union. 

MLB messed this up by not having strict, written guidelines in place.  They purposely omitted players from being punished.

[24fps]

When Titles Are Tarnished by Cheating but Not Taken Away

A fairly short (by NY Times standards) think-piece on cheating in modern day sports.  Featuring, but not exclusive to, the current Astros scandal.

Quote

“If the goal was to uphold the honesty and sanctity of the game for a broader community, the ultimate penalty is to vacate the wins and the titles,” said Ann Skeet, a sports and leadership ethicist for the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at the University of Santa Clara in California. “But there are some built-in conflicts — the commissioner works for the owners. They share revenue. Their fortunes are tied together.”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/16/sports/astros-cheating-world-series.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article