Chris Shaw claimed from Giants

[wildcard]

8 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

So if I understand this correctly, the Orioles DFA'd a guy who hits 30 homers a year for a guy who is six months older and has never hit in the major leagues?  One scout told me he's Chris Davis-light. Big time raw power, long swing, slow (15.4 percentile spring speed in 2019) and has shown to be a below average defensive 1B and corner outfielder.

The only thing in his favor is he hits left-handed, has an option and cheap. 

I can't figure this one out. 

We  have seen this before.   Elias claims a guy and then passes him through waivers.   Or attempts to.   Shaw is no different from Hector Velazquez, Urena, Hanhold, or  Diplan,  He tried to do the same with Alberto but he got claimed and Elias had to reclaim him.    Shaw is cheap, has an option so adds organization flexibility and could be recalled as a DH if the O's have a bunch of injuries.   I don't think he stays on the major league roster just like these other waiver claims. 

Nunez is a guy Elias had to make a call on whether he fit with all the other players that have more potential to hit and play better defense.  Was he worth the money and the roster spot?  Elias decided he was not.  The O's would not have the at bats available for him to be productive.

[Tony-OH]

7 hours ago, Number5 said:

I don't think the decision to let Nunez go is related to this flyer at all.  This is merely a low-cost, no-risk flyer IMO.  Nunez was gone before Elias even knew Shaw would be placed on waivers by the Giants, so there is no reason to think the plan was to release Nunez and replace him in the lineup with Shaw.  As you said, Shaw is left-handed, has an option, and is cheap.  I don't think it is any more complicated than that.   There's a good chance IMO that, as other moves are made, Shaw ends up DFA and we try to pass him thru waivers and outright him to Norfolk.

I'm not excited that the team is making moves because guys are cheap, especially when the other option is around $2 million, which should be chump change for major league organizations.

I'm just not sure I get this particular set of skills. Now perhaps Elias is going to DFA him and try to sneak him into the minor league system as depth. I guess there are worse guys to do this with, but I really would like to think this is a transition year where the Orioles are starting to bring up guys that will be contributors to a winning future and not place holders.

[Tony-OH]

3 hours ago, wildcard said:

We  have seen this before.   Elias claims a guy and then passes him through waivers.   Or attempts to.   Shaw is no different from Hector Velazquez, Urena, Hanhold, or  Diplan,  He tried to do the same with Alberto but he got claimed and Elias had to reclaim him.    Shaw is cheap, has an option so adds organization flexibility and could be recalled as a DH if the O's have a bunch of injuries.   I don't think he stays on the major league roster just like these other waiver claims. 

Nunez is a guy Elias had to make a call on whether he fit with all the other players that have more potential to hit and play better defense.  Was he worth the money and the roster spot?  Elias decided he was not.  The O's would not have the at bats available for him to be productive.

With the injury histories of Hays, Santander and relative inexperience with mixed results of Mullins and Stewart, I'm not sure we can say that.

No Nunez did clear waivers and no one traded for him so perhaps there is something else going on here with him, but the guy has been a pretty productive bat and is just going to be 27 years old next year.

Either way, I get what you are saying about Shaw and I agree, I think Elias will end up DFAing him and trying to keep him in the system.

[Tony-OH]

20 hours ago, Frobby said:

Looking on Fangraphs, Shaw was not on their list of 37 prospects they rated.    So, I’d guess he would not crack our top 30.    

Shaw would not crack our top 30.

[Jammer7]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I'm not excited that the team is making moves because guys are cheap, especially when the other option is around $2 million, which should be chump change for major league organizations.

I'm just not sure I get this particular set of skills. Now perhaps Elias is going to DFA him and try to sneak him into the minor league system as depth. I guess there are worse guys to do this with, but I really would like to think this is a transition year where the Orioles are starting to bring up guys that will be contributors to a winning future and not place holders.

Shaw has nothing to do with Nunez. There is no correlation at all. Shaw should be DFA’d at some point, probably soon. He can be outrighted. You’re not supposed to get excited about a move like this. It’s a potential depth move, with a big LH power upside if he can make some larger improvements. Chances are slim he can do that, but why not take a shot?  He’ll be in AAA, unless he makes huge strides. And he does remind me of Chris Davis quite a bit. 

I am not sure if Nunez was making what Valaika is due, projected around $1 million, that he would still be an Oriole. I doubt it. Roster space is one thing, roster flexibility is another, but he just would not have gotten the at bats. They need the at bats for Mancini, Mountcastle, Hays, Santander, Stewart, Mullins and Diaz when he comes up. Yes, some injury history in there, sure. But the upside and potential value in that group can only be developed with experience. They need these guys to get their at bats. They are all potential members of the next competitive team the Orioles have. And like 2020, Iglesias, and several others, might get some at bats at DH.

Why keep a guy around with no options, whose only tool is his bat, when he’s not going to get at bats? I think that is smart, not cheap. Now if they did that to Mancini, that would be cheap. Without the albatross of the Davis contract, I still think Nunez is out. He needs to be a regular to be productive, he’s not a bench guy. 

[Sports Guy]

There is no real legit argument that regular at bats aren’t there for Nunez until Diaz is an option up here.

[Jammer7]

4 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

There is no real legit argument that regular at bats aren’t there for Nunez until Diaz is an option up here.

If you say so, Rob. It’s not an argument. It is fact since Mike Elias released him in favor of others. There are still several decisions to be made, subtractions and additions. Before you have a coronary event, maybe wait a bit and see what else Mike Elias has in store. Maybe he knows something you don’t know. Or maybe he’s just a lying idiot like you say. Whatever.

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, Jammer7 said:

If you say so, Rob. It’s not an argument. It is fact since Mike Elias released him in favor of others. There are still several decisions to be made, subtractions and additions. Before you have a coronary event, maybe wait a bit and see what else Mike Elias has in store. Maybe he knows something you don’t know. Or maybe he’s just a lying idiot like you say. Whatever.

I never said he’s an idiot. I also said I don’t believe it’s his decision.

It’s the cheap ass ownership group that we unfortunately have to deal with.  I do think Elias is giving us GM speak as to reasoning why the decision was made.  Seeing as every single GM in the history of time does this, it’s not a leap to say this.

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

I never said he’s an idiot. I also said I don’t believe it’s his decision.

It’s the cheap ass ownership group that we unfortunately have to deal with.  I do think Elias is giving us GM speak as to reasoning why the decision was made.  Seeing as every single GM in the history of time does this, it’s not a leap to say this.

Its appear your hatred for the Angelos family is impairing your judgement.  There is no evidence that ownership is holding back Elias spending.  What has happened over the last two years is just what happened in 2012-13 with the Astros rebuild.  First tear down.  Trade establish players for prospects.  Then build back with younger, cheaper players.  It was not until year 3 that they spent 30m on Scott Feldman.   Of course the Astros did not have to content with Davis' huge contract nor the loss of revenue from a pandemic.    We really have not reached the point where ownership should be spending in the rebuild.  But its coming.

[Sports Guy]

11 hours ago, wildcard said:

Its appear your hatred for the Angelos family is impairing your judgement.  There is no evidence that ownership is holding back Elias spending.  What has happened over the last two years is just what happened in 2012-13 with the Astros rebuild.  First tear down.  Trade establish players for prospects.  Then build back with younger, cheaper players.  It was not until year 3 that they spent 30m on Scott Feldman.   Of course the Astros did not have to content with Davis' huge contract nor the loss of revenue from a pandemic.    We really have not reached the point where ownership should be spending in the rebuild.  But its coming.

Saying there hasn’t been evidence is just wrong.

They valued saved money over quality back in the 2018 deals.

Elias essentially came out and said ownership wouldn’t allow the deal the Angels and Giants did where the Giants bought a prospect to take on Cozarts deal.  Elias said he would like to do something like that but basically isn’t allowed.

And you absolutely can still spend money when you are rebuilding.  You don’t do it poorly of course but there are plenty of opportunities out there that isn’t happening and I don’t believe for a second Elias would be letting those deals go by if ownership allowed him to do what he wants.

[wildcard]

40 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Saying there hasn’t been evidence is just wrong.

They values saved money over quality back in the 2018 deals.

Elias essentially came out and said ownership wouldn’t allow the deal the Angels and Giants did where the Giants bought a prospect to take on Cozarts deal.  Elias said he would like to do something like that but basically isn’t allowed.

And you absolutely can still spend money when you are rebuilding.  You don’t do it poorly of course but there are plenty of opportunities out there that isn’t happening and I don’t believe for a second Elias would be letting those deals go by if ownership allowed him to do what he wants.

I'd like the see the quote where Elias said that ownership was not allowed him to spend for Cozart  or anyone else.  The context would be interesting.

Its isn't happening because its not part of Elias' rebuild model which is similar to the Astros.     Spending is part of your desired model.  I understand that.  But Elias is building a talent base first with young cheap players.  He will spend when its time to compete and he has holes.

Right now he is still waiting on Adley.  He needs at better 2B and 3B and better starting pitching to compete the way he wants to in the future.   This stuff in coming but it not here yet.  Rodriguez, DL Hall, Gunnar, Westburg.   They are all part of Elias' plan.  And those guys will be cheap for a while.  

I doubt seriously that ownership told Elias to cut Nunez.   Its more likely that Elias wants to develop Santander, Mullins, Hays, Diaz, and Mountcastle  to be part of the next contending team and needs the at bats to accomplish that.

[Jammer7]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

I never said he’s an idiot. I also said I don’t believe it’s his decision.

It’s the cheap ass ownership group that we unfortunately have to deal with.  I do think Elias is giving us GM speak as to reasoning why the decision was made.  Seeing as every single GM in the history of time does this, it’s not a leap to say this.

You have called Mike Elias a liar several times in your posts in the past few days. You have repeatedly said this was a bad decision. You are entitled to your opinion, as we all are. Despite several posters trying to explain the logic to you intelligently, you remain steadfast in your criticism and that any opinion you do not share is not legitimate. The opinion of 30 major league teams is that he is not worth his projected arbitration salary. Is that legitimate? 

I am done. We have beat this to death. Down arrow me again, I dig it. I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I think we should argue with other people for a while. I need space.  

[Sports Guy]

9 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

You have called Mike Elias a liar several times in your posts in the past few days. You have repeatedly said this was a bad decision. You are entitled to your opinion, as we all are. Despite several posters trying to explain the logic to you intelligently, you remain steadfast in your criticism and that any opinion you do not share is not legitimate. The opinion of 30 major league teams is that he is not worth his projected arbitration salary. Is that legitimate? 

I am done. We have beat this to death. Down arrow me again, I dig it. I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I think we should argue with other people for a while. I need space.  

Yes, I think he lied to the public about why they cut him.  Yes, GMs do that all the time.  That’s part of the Job.  Are you denying that?  Do you think GMs always are truthful to the media about their intentions?  Do you think he’s going to come out and say ownership wouldn’t let me spend 1-2M on a player?  You really believe he would say that?

And I don’t really care what other posters are arguing.  It’s irrelevant because their point isn’t really something I disagree with for the most part.  We all agree his value is limited.  We all agree he is a limited player.  We all agree that there are younger guys we would rather see over the long term.  People are arguing with me as if I’m saying I want him here over those guys and that he is some stud player.  I have never once come close to saying any of that.  In fact, I have said several times that I hope he can’t even find at bats a few months into the season.  I think you are all getting wrapped up in a discussion I’m not having. It’s also seems like no one on here wants to have a discussion where the Os are criticized at all. I don’t really get that.  Do you guys think they are infallible or something?  Has this become a “homer” site?

My only point and it’s one that no one can argue against, is that all of those younger/better players have a very sketchy performance and/or injury history with the possible exception of Mountcastle and paying Nunez his peanuts salary to be here as the everyday-ish DH for at least a few months and be an insurance policy for those players was worth it.  
 

You can not argue against the idea that all of these players have issues.  You can not sit there and guarantee any of them, again outside of maybe Mountcastle, will be relatively healthy (you can never guarantee health but we all know the difference between an injury prone player and one who isn’t) and/or have the performance needed to stay in the lineup.

For all of Nunez’s flaws, an 800 OPS, 30 homer bat has value.  The lack of Ba/OBP means that value is only worth so much money but that level of money hasn’t been reached yet for him to have that value TO THE ORIOLES.  The “other 29 teams” argument is irrelevant to my point.  Those teams aren’t the Orioles.  Those teams don’t have the early need and the long term question marks at those positions.  I. am strictly talking his value to the Os.  Plus, half of those other 29 teams don’t have a DH, so bringing that up is just a poor argument to begin with.  And btw, we don’t know that some team isn’t/won’t pay him 1-2M.  We know no one would trade for him and pay him that salary.  There’s a difference between the 2.
 

And again, on top of all of that, you could have cut Nunez in ST, paid him 20% of his salary and moved on.  If everyone was healthy and performing well, that would have been fine.  If Diaz looked like he was coming up immediately or even sooner than we think, that’s fine with me.  But I feel the insurance policy was necessary and my guess is that will come to fruition this season and even if it doesn’t, they still should have kept him because you can’t tell the future.

[Sports Guy]

10 hours ago, wildcard said:

I'd like the see the quote where Elias said that ownership was not allowed him to spend for Cozart  or anyone else.  The context would be interesting.

Its isn't happening because its not part of Elias' rebuild model which is similar to the Astros.     Spending is part of your desired model.  I understand that.  But Elias is building a talent base first with young cheap players.  He will spend when its time to compete and he has holes.

Right now he is still waiting on Adley.  He needs at better 2B and 3B and better starting pitching to compete the way he wants to in the future.   This stuff in coming but it not here yet.  Rodriguez, DL Hall, Gunnar, Westburg.   They are all part of Elias' plan.  And those guys will be cheap for a while.  

I doubt seriously that ownership told Elias to cut Nunez.   Its more likely that Elias wants to develop Santander, Mullins, Hays, Diaz, and Mountcastle  to be part of the next contending team and needs the at bats to accomplish that.

You keep mentioning those guys as if the presence of Nunez doesn’t allow them to develop.

Nunez has been here the last few years and all of them have been brought up and developed in Baltimore while Nunez is still getting at bats.  I don’t get why you just ignore that and keep mentioning this but the reality of what has actually happened shows you to be wrong.

The presence of Nunez only becomes an issue if/when Diaz is up here and if the other CO/1st/DH type guys are healthy and performing.  Until then, his presence doesn’t really effect anything.

Oh and here is Elias talking about that trade.  Hard to believe this wasn’t discussed here:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bs-sp-orioles-creative-trades-mike-elias-20191211-edhzbzbk5vaczovw3agxychiza-story.html%3foutputType=amp

Also, more info on this from Connolly:

https://theathletic.com/1451254/2019/12/11/connolly-a-trade-not-made-makes-you-wonder-how-much-mike-elias-hands-are-tied-by-orioles-financial-constraints/?source=user_shared_article

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

You keep mentioning those guys as if the presence of Nunez doesn’t allow them to develop.

Nunez has been here the last few years and all of them have been brought up and developed in Baltimore while Nunez is still getting at bats.  I don’t get why you just ignore that and keep mentioning this but the reality of what has actually happened shows you to be wrong.

The presence of Nunez only becomes an issue if/when Diaz is up here and if the other CO/1st/DH type guys are healthy and performing.  Until then, his presence doesn’t really effect anything.

Oh and here is Elias talking about that trade.  Hard to believe this wasn’t discussed here:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bs-sp-orioles-creative-trades-mike-elias-20191211-edhzbzbk5vaczovw3agxychiza-story.html%3foutputType=amp

Also, more info on this from Connolly:

https://theathletic.com/1451254/2019/12/11/connolly-a-trade-not-made-makes-you-wonder-how-much-mike-elias-hands-are-tied-by-orioles-financial-constraints/?source=user_shared_article

Elias would have been irresponsible to spend 12m for a first round pick (18th overall pick).  Many first rounders are never impact players.   Meoli is speculating to  say  that   "“budgetary considerations” might be behind that".   Elias myself says on a case vs case basis he has to determine if he would even ask ownership to make such a deal.   There is a cost versus  risk equation the has to be considered here.    That was not done for the Chris Davis deal and we a living with that mistake.  Its probably not smart to spend 12m on a player that may never get out of the minors.

Cozart would have been of no use to the O's at a 12M price in 2020 even if there was a full season.  He was not going to make them a winner.  And he is a free agent after the season at 35 years old.

I can't read Connolly article because of the firewall.