Does Merv Rettenmund belong in the Orioles Hall of Fame?

[Frobby]

Merv Rettenmund is arguably the most underrated former Oriole.  He had a 20 rWAR career, 17 rWAR as an Oriole.    He had individual seasons of 5.9 (1971), 4.8 (1970) and 4.3 (1973), all of which were playoff seasons for the Orioles, including a World Series championship team and another pennant winner.    He was in the top 5 in WAR on the team in all three of those seasons (2nd only to Brooks in 1971).    

It’s kind of amazing that Rettenmund packed so much value into his career.    He only qualified for the batting title once, in 1971.   He was 3rd in the league in batting and 2nd in OBP that year among qualifiers, playing in 141 games, 129 as a starter.   Otherwise, he never played more than 107 games in a season.   As an Oriole, he only played 570 games in six seasons.   And yet, the 17 rWAR he accrued are more than many Orioles Hall of Famers, such as Gus Triandos (13.2 in 953 games), Luis Aparicio (16.4 in 721 games), Jim Gentile (14.8 in 583 games), Lee May (4.5 in 794 games), Elrod Hendricks (7.3 rWAR in 657 games), Harold Baines (9.5 rWAR in 666 games), Mike Bordick (14.5 rWAR in 739 games), Rich Dauer (14.4 rWAR in 1140 games), Roberto Alomar (12.5 rWAR in 412 games), John Lowenstein (7.2 rWAR in 745 games) and Gary Roenicke (15.7 rWAR in 850 games).    And that’s just the position players!

I think Rettenmund suffers from having had skills that were underappreciated in the era when he played — very high OBP (5th all time for the Orioles at .383) and solid defensive abilities (+30 Rtot as an Orioles outfielder).    Plus, he’s simply overshadowed by Frank Robinson, Paul Blair and Don Buford in his era as an Orioles OF.

So, what say you?    Should Rettenmund be in the Orioles HOF?

(Credit to poster Ridgway22 for bringing this topic to my attention.) 

 

[Sports Guy]

Well the standards are so low anymore, so why not?

[forphase1]

I agree with SG.  I hate how watered down the MLB HOF is getting,  and the Os one is way worse.  It's not the Hall of Very Good, though you wouldn't know it by some of the folks in it.   

[wildcard]

The thing about Rettenmund is that he was very good as a 4th outfielder.  So the O's trade Frank to make room for him and he doesn't produce as well.   The O's traded him at 30 for Ross Grimsley.    

I guess if Lowenstein is in you can make a case for it.  But its kind of a so-so pick.

[Number5]

1 hour ago, forphase1 said:

I agree with SG.  I hate how watered down the MLB HOF is getting,  and the Os one is way worse.  It's not the Hall of Very Good, though you wouldn't know it by some of the folks in it.   

In fairness, I don't think that a team's HOF should have the same standards as the MLB HOF. 

I think it was a mistake putting Harold Baines, for example, in the MLB HOF, as the MLB HOF should be held to a higher standard than being a very good, popular player.  For him to be in the White Sox and Orioles HOFs makes sense to me, however.  I don't know if the Marlins even have a HOF, but if they do, I would think that Jeff Conine would be worthy of being in it, for much the same reasons that Gus Triandos, for example, is in the Orioles HOF.  They were important and popular players in the early stages of the teams' existence in their cities.  Heck, Conine was nicknamed "Mr. Marlin."  Neither Triandos nor Conine were ever seriously considered for the MLB HOF, however. 

Rettenmund was an important piece of the most consistently excellent Orioles teams.  Recognizing him in our team's HOF seems like a reasonable idea to me.

[Ridgway22]

3 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Well the standards are so low anymore, so why not?

For the Major League HOF, yes, not even a discussion. But for the O's franchise HOF, his numbers really stand up under modern scrutiny, compared to those already inducted.  He had very strong OBP was a good defensive outfielder, and had some speed... he was a running back at Ball State and drafted by the Dallas Cowboys.

He played on a team with 3 sure fire ML HOF's in The Robinsons and Jim Palmer, as well as the Blair's Powell's, Buford's, etc., and was overshadowed. He never had a full-time starting role, but was very productive in the role he did play.

After a couple very good seasons, the O's shipped Frank Robinson off and gave him the full time right field job. Merv hurt his shoulder in Detroit early in the season, and tore an abdominal muscle in August. He was never the same player after that. But I would argue he was invaluable to the O's during their franchise defining 3-season run of 69-71. 

After looking at the careers of the players already in the O's HOF, and looking at his stats under the modern analytical lens, I think Merv merits inclusion.

 

 

 

[Philip]

1 hour ago, Number5 said:

In fairness, I don't think that a team's HOF should have the same standards as the MLB HOF. 

I think it was a mistake putting Harold Baines, for example, in the MLB HOF, as the MLB HOF should be held to a higher standard than being a very good, popular player.  For him to be in the White Sox and Orioles HOFs makes sense to me, however.  I don't know if the Marlins even have a HOF, but if they do, I would think that Jeff Conine would be worthy of being in it, for much the same reasons that Gus Triandos, for example, is in the Orioles HOF.  They were important and popular players in the early stages of the teams' existence in their cities.  Heck, Conine was nicknamed "Mr. Marlin."  Neither Triandos nor Conine were ever seriously considered for the MLB HOF, however. 

Rettenmund was an important piece of the most consistently excellent Orioles teams.  Recognizing him in our team's HOF seems like a reasonable idea to me.

Convinced Me!

I grew up a Rangers fan, and for me the Rangers HOF should include the guys I loved as a boy. Whether they were great is irrelevant.

In about 1981, I was skiing at Crested Butte, and I rode the ski lift with a catcher for the Cardinals(don’t remember his name) and we had a pleasant chat about whether Jim Sundberg was better than Johnny Bench.

Of COURSE Sundberg was better! Who the hell is Johnny Bench? Jim Sundberg was-one of-my HERO(s)! Best framer ever even before framing was a thing. So many Gold Gloves, he had an extra large closet. A RANGER.

So yeah, put Merv in. He’s there for the Bmore Faithful, and that’s what matters.

 

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Ridgway22 said:

For the Major League HOF, yes, not even a discussion. But for the O's franchise HOF, his numbers really stand up under modern scrutiny, compared to those already inducted.  He had very strong OBP was a good defensive outfielder, and had some speed... he was a running back at Ball State and drafted by the Dallas Cowboys.

He played on a team with 3 sure fire ML HOF's in The Robinsons and Jim Palmer, as well as the Blair's Powell's, Buford's, etc., and was overshadowed. He never had a full-time starting role, but was very productive in the role he did play.

After a couple very good seasons, the O's shipped Frank Robinson off and gave him the full time right field job. Merv hurt his shoulder in Detroit early in the season, and tore an abdominal muscle in August. He was never the same player after that. But I would argue he was invaluable to the O's during their franchise defining 3-season run of 69-71. 

After looking at the careers of the players already in the O's HOF, and looking at his stats under the modern analytical lens, I think Merv merits inclusion.

 

 

 

My comment was much more about how watered down the Os HOF is vs Rettenmund himself.

[Ridgway22]

Out of curiosity, tried to find each team's hall of fame, but there is zero standardization. But if I'm reading it correctly, the O's Hall of Fame has 77 members, which include non-players like Fred Manfra and Riche Bancells. The Cincinnati Reds have 89 the Philadelphia Phillies have 66, the Red Sox 89, no idea about non-players on the other lists. (non-exhaustive search)

Some teams apparently do not even have a team HOF or equivalent. 

It looks like the "Oriole Advocates" run the O's HOF, which was created in 1977. Doesn't appear to be any real "criteria" for induction.

http://www.orioleadvocates.org/orioles-hall-of-fame.html

From the page:

The regular Hall of Fame Committee consists of a small group of media members and Advocates appointed by the current Advocate president. The committee creates a ballot containing the leading candidates for election to the Hall of Fame. Ballots are mailed to prominent media members, members of the Oriole Hall of Fame, members of the Oriole Front Office, selected Baltimore baseball figures and eligible Advocate members . The nominee receiving the most votes, but at least 60% of the votes cast, shall be elected to membership in the Hall of Fame.

 

Trivia: in the MLB HOF there is a PLAYER inducted who only played two seasons in the MLB, going 21-22 with a 2.78 ERA, Candy Cummings. He was elected in by the Veteran's committee in 1939, apparently he is credited with inventing the curveball.

 

[drjohnnyfeva]

It's funny that I was just looking thru my baseball cards back in the summer with my son.  Merv was one of my first and most cherished because he was an Oriole; but I had never looked at his numbers like I did with the players I grew up with in the mid and later 70's.  The numbers from the OP are pretty remarkable.  In 1971, he was the #19 finisher in MVP voting.  He was #6 of 9 Orioles to finish in the top 28 of MVP voting that year.  Frank Robinson finished at #3 and Don Buford finished at #27.  CRAZY!   

Merv is the only regular OF of that era left out of the O's Hall; while platoon players, who I love from my generation, Brother Lowe and Gary Roenicke basically combined to be Merv.  They are ranked as the #34 Oriole on Camden Chat...

Induct Merv.

 

[SteveA]

The team HOF doesn't have to meet objective standards, IMO.  It's kind of a feel good thing that let's people connect with their youth.  If a guy was popular and loved and means something to the fans, he should be in there.  I believe Wild Bill Hagy is in, and according to bbref his career war is 0.0.

Sounds like Rettenmund has a statistical case if that's all you care about.  And I'm sure there's a certain point of find memories of only because he was a part of some great teams...that's probably why Dauer is in as well.  Lowenstein and Elrod are in because of how beloved they were by fans, which is 100% fine with me.  If you want to have a HOF based strictly on WAR or some completely objective stat or set of stats, you can do that.  It's called an Excel spreadsheet and every can make one on their own computer.

To me, Merv is in the Dauer category..a decent player on some great teams, maybe never as big a fan favorite and never a star.  The kind of guy who, if he doesn't make the list, probably no one noticed except the rare few folks who made him their favorite player at the time.  Imagine if Elrod wasn't in the O's HOF on the other hand, there would be articles written about the injustice that needs to be fixed.

I can go either way on Rettenmund, but I really don't care about the statistical argument.  Trying to boil a guy down to one number and rank him ahead or behind someone based on else is not something I am really interested in doing when it comes to Halls of Fame, though I know there are folks like Bill James who have spent endless hours doing that.   

Especially with a team HOF, which is just a reason to celebrate a team's history and connect generations of fans and players.  What is more important for fans to know 30 years from now, that there was a guy named Merv who spent a chunk of his career as a 4th outfielder and supporting character on some great Oriole teams and whose stats look pretty good by modern standards, or that there was a guy named Elrod who wore the uniform more games than anyone else, was universally loved by fans despite not being all that great a player?  I go with the latter, every time.

 

[Frobby]

57 minutes ago, SteveA said:

I can go either way on Rettenmund, but I really don't care about the statistical argument.  Trying to boil a guy down to one number and rank him ahead or behind someone based on else is not something I am really interested in doing when it comes to Halls of Fame, though I know there are folks like Bill James who have spent endless hours doing that.   

Especially with a team HOF, which is just a reason to celebrate a team's history and connect generations of fans and players.  What is more important for fans to know 30 years from now, that there was a guy named Merv who spent a chunk of his career as a 4th outfielder and supporting character on some great Oriole teams and whose stats look pretty good by modern standards, or that there was a guy named Elrod who wore the uniform more games than anyone else, was universally loved by fans despite not being all that great a player?  I go with the latter, every time.

I think Elrod is clearly in due to his lengthy tenure as bullpen coach and his role as a goodwill ambassador on the team.   As a player, he was no more important than Andy Etchebarren (9.4 rWAR in 730 games, played on 4 teams that went to the WS, two champions, 6 playoff teams).    In fact, whether Etchebarren belongs in is a whole separate topic.   

While I agree that we don’t want HOF criteria based solely on WAR, I do think WAR brings to light just how underrated Rettenmund was.   In terms of WAR/game or WAR/game started or WAR/PA, I think you’d find Rettenmund in the top 5 or so of anyone who played a significant number of games with the O’s.   Just to illustrate:

WAR/game: Rettenmund .030, Alomar .040
WAR/GS: Rettenmund .039, Alomar .042

WAR/PA: Rettenmund .0084, Alomar .0090

That’s pretty close, and Rettenmund played 158 more games in an Orioles uniform than Alomar did.

Nevertheless, I could go either way on this.    I can’t conjure up any signature Rettenmund moment, and the fact is, he was a 4th outfielder for most of his time here, albeit a really good one.   It’s really the compelling WAR argument that runs in his favor, and the fact that he was on the greatest of Orioles teams and was at his best at that time.

[DrungoHazewood]

On 12/20/2020 at 10:04 AM, forphase1 said:

I agree with SG.  I hate how watered down the MLB HOF is getting,  and the Os one is way worse.  It's not the Hall of Very Good, though you wouldn't know it by some of the folks in it.   

The real Hall shifted from inner circle guys to something else about 1945, so if you're mad at it being watered down you need to be mad at folks who've been dead for 50 years.  The O's Hall of Fame inducted Gene Woodling almost 30 years ago, and Woodling played the equivalent of three non-playoff years for the O's in his mid-30s. 

Both Halls of Fame have their critics who think the bars are waaaay too low, but they've been about where they are today for a long time.  If anything the standards applied to today's players are much higher than they were 50 years ago (at least for the Cooperstown Hall).

[DrungoHazewood]

5 hours ago, SteveA said:

The team HOF doesn't have to meet objective standards, IMO.  It's kind of a feel good thing that let's people connect with their youth.  If a guy was popular and loved and means something to the fans, he should be in there.  I believe Wild Bill Hagy is in, and according to bbref his career war is 0.0.

Sounds like Rettenmund has a statistical case if that's all you care about.  And I'm sure there's a certain point of find memories of only because he was a part of some great teams...that's probably why Dauer is in as well.  Lowenstein and Elrod are in because of how beloved they were by fans, which is 100% fine with me.  If you want to have a HOF based strictly on WAR or some completely objective stat or set of stats, you can do that.  It's called an Excel spreadsheet and every can make one on their own computer.

To me, Merv is in the Dauer category..a decent player on some great teams, maybe never as big a fan favorite and never a star.  The kind of guy who, if he doesn't make the list, probably no one noticed except the rare few folks who made him their favorite player at the time.  Imagine if Elrod wasn't in the O's HOF on the other hand, there would be articles written about the injustice that needs to be fixed.

I can go either way on Rettenmund, but I really don't care about the statistical argument.  Trying to boil a guy down to one number and rank him ahead or behind someone based on else is not something I am really interested in doing when it comes to Halls of Fame, though I know there are folks like Bill James who have spent endless hours doing that.   

Especially with a team HOF, which is just a reason to celebrate a team's history and connect generations of fans and players.  What is more important for fans to know 30 years from now, that there was a guy named Merv who spent a chunk of his career as a 4th outfielder and supporting character on some great Oriole teams and whose stats look pretty good by modern standards, or that there was a guy named Elrod who wore the uniform more games than anyone else, was universally loved by fans despite not being all that great a player?  I go with the latter, every time.

 

I think Rodrigo Lopez should be in the O's Hall of Fame.  Anybody who willingly signed with the 2002 Orioles should be recognized for service above and beyond the call of duty.

[SteveA]

3 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I think Rodrigo Lopez should be in the O's Hall of Fame.  Anybody who willingly signed with the 2002 Orioles should be recognized for service above and beyond the call of duty.

Multiple Opening Day starter, right?   How many of those have we had?

He always looked SO short on the mound, especially from the upper deck.   I'm convinced he was about 5'8" regardless of what he was listed at.