Did the O's just sign their backup catcher of the future?

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Obviously you're exaggerating for effect, but there is a continnuum of defensive and offensive skills.  If you have enough of both or either you're a starter.  If you don't, you're a backup or a minor leaguer. I see no reason to think that a good defensive catcher who can't hit a lick is more valuable than a good offensive catcher with suspect defense. 

A flaw in your exaggeration is that a utility infielder or a DH would be about as good a defender as a career catcher with mediocre defense.  That's like assuming if you have Jonathan Schoop playing below-average defense at short you might as well play Renato Nunez there.  Schoop was a -5 shortstop or whatever, Nunez would be a -30 or -40.  Same with Ryan Flaherty catching vs. Chance Sisco or whomever.

Yes, I was engaging in a bit of hyperbole, but I do think the point stands.

A catcher who is acceptable on both sides of the ball is a starter and not a back up. Because you have seven other guys to provide offense, defense is more important from your catcher. I understand the logic that good enough offense compensates for bad defense, but I think that is a poor argument.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Philip

[Redskins Rick]

58 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Check the numbers.

I know, Frobby was nice enough to point me to the errors of my thought process.

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Nick Ciuffo is the quintessential example of a former first round pick who has been promoted up the system for no other reason than he was a former first round pick. Even with good defense, Ciuffo would have been out of baseball years ago if he were a 20th round pick vs a disappointing first round pick.

Saying that, he's not a bad signing to add to the catching depth after the team parted ways with Holaday and Cervenka. He's a pure platoon (he can't hit lefties at all) back up catching candidate who will probably end up splitting time with Wynns in AAA.

I honestly expect Elias to sign a Holaday-like veteran, maybe even Holaday himself again to a minor league contract and have him compete as well. 

I don't think Ciuffo is anything more than upper organizational catching depth that could spend some time as a back up catcher with the Orioles at some point in 2021.

If we are talk backup catcher it really does not matter to me that he can't hit lefties.  If he can't hit lefties, don't play him vs lefties.      He hit  276/332/402/739 vs righthanded pitching at AAA in 259 at bats in 2018 and 2019.   While that is not great it shows some ability with the bats.  I don't expect a backup catcher that plays once a week to be an offensive force.   

Its really being the Rays defensive minor league player of the year two years in a row as a catcher that catches my attention.

Having never seen that guy I am not sold on him but he is interesting.  I doubt Elias pays the arbitration rates for Severino and Sisco next off season with Rutschman in the majors in 2022.   This guy is the best fit for backup catcher in the O's system in 2022 IMO.

[Ruzious]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

There's no harm.  But it's also no big deal.  I think most of us (I know I am) are reacting to this over-wrought story of the guy being the backup catcher for the foreseeable future because Earl Weaver eked value out of John Lowenstein and Benny Ayala.  It's nice that they signed Nick Ciuffo, but there are a lot of Nick Ciuffos floating around the minors.  The Rays didn't let him go because they thought he was a key piece of their 2026 pennant winners, he's a guy likely to post a .600 OPS with good defense.

Why are people assuming he's THE backup C?  You just pointed out why he likely won't be.  It must be because wildcard likes him...?  Once Adley gets promoted to Baltimore, Sisco will most likely be the backup catcher for the foreseeable future.  Ciuffos will be - at best - the 3rd catcher unless he suddenly learns how to hit.              

[wildcard]

14 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

Why are people assuming he's THE backup C?  You just pointed out why he likely won't be.  It must be because wildcard likes him...?  Once Adley gets promoted to Baltimore, Sisco will most likely be the backup catcher for the foreseeable future.  Ciuffos will be - at best - the 3rd catcher unless he suddenly learns how to hit.              

What makes you think Elias is going to pay Sisco once he gets to his arbitration years?

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, wildcard said:

What makes you thing Elias is going to pay Sisco once he gets to his arbitration years?

It depends what Sisco would earn, and how competitive the team is at the time.   Caleb Joseph earned $700 k in Arb 1 and $1.25 mm in Arb 2.    That’s not a lot.   Let’s see what kind of year Sisco has.   

[wildcard]

21 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It depends what Sisco would earn, and how competitive the team is at the time.   Caleb Joseph earned $700 k in Arb 1 and $1.25 mm in Arb 2.    That’s not a lot.   Let’s see what kind of year Sisco has.   

Yea, of course, we have to wait to know.  But if we are projecting what may happen a year from now I who not equate a 31 year old Caleb to a 26 year old Sisco who was a 2nd round draft choice.   

His numbers will make a difference but the two players will not be the same stage of their careers.  Severino got 1.8m his 1st arbitration year. He is probably a a better comp than Caleb.

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Ruzious said:

Why are people assuming he's THE backup C?  You just pointed out why he likely won't be.  It must be because wildcard likes him...?  Once Adley gets promoted to Baltimore, Sisco will most likely be the backup catcher for the foreseeable future.  Ciuffos will be - at best - the 3rd catcher unless he suddenly learns how to hit.              

If learning how to hit is the primary requirement for BU C, I’d suggest that We don’t have ANY backup catcher yet.

[Frobby]

26 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Yea, of course, we have to wait to know.  But if we are projecting what may happen a year from now I who not equate a 31 year old Caleb to a 26 year old Sisco who was a 2nd round draft choice.   

His numbers will make a difference but the two players will not be the same stage of their careers.  Severino got 1.8m his 1st arbitration year. He is probably a a better comp than Caleb.

I agree Caleb is not that good a comp.    He got his $700 k after his 0 RBI season and he went to arbitration and lost.   

To be clear, though, Severino has been the principal catcher the last two years, so he’s not the ideal comp for Sisco, either.    If Severino is making $1.8 mm, I’d think Sisco is around $1-1.2 mm next season if the playing time ratio remains the same this year.   
 

[wildcard]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I agree Caleb is not that good a comp.    He got his $700 k after his 0 RBI season and he went to arbitration and lost.   

To be clear, though, Severino has been the principal catcher the last two years, so he’s not the ideal comp for Sisco, either.    If Severino is making $1.8 mm, I’d think Sisco is around $1-1.2 mm next season if the playing time ratio remains the same this year.   
 

Well we have to wait to see what Sisco does this year to KNOW.     But Elias may not pay  Sisco 1-1.2m vs paying Cuiffo 600K  if he has a good year.   Plus if Sisco gets send down this year and stays there for 20 days he will be out of options.   Thus causing less roster flexibility.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Ruzious said:

Why are people assuming he's THE backup C?  You just pointed out why he likely won't be.  It must be because wildcard likes him...?  Once Adley gets promoted to Baltimore, Sisco will most likely be the backup catcher for the foreseeable future.  Ciuffos will be - at best - the 3rd catcher unless he suddenly learns how to hit.              

Yes, of course.  It's wildcard making sweeping declarations about a bit player based on little fragments of half-evidence.  I think that Cuiffo's likely career path is somewhere between Raul Chavez, Jeff Tackett and Paul Bako.  Who knows which. 

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

If we are talk backup catcher it really does not matter to me that he can't hit lefties.  If he can't hit lefties, don't play him vs lefties.   

So you are going to carry both a left-handed and a right-handed backup catcher for those times when Rutschman or whomever has taken a foul ball off his hand and is out for three days? 

The truth is they'll just play him against whatever pitcher is on the mound because you can't be too choosy about your backup catcher when the main guy takes a knock.  Which happens about four times a year, if you're lucky.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, Philip said:

 I understand the logic that good enough offense compensates for bad defense, but I think that is a poor argument.

A run saved is roughly equal to a run scored, so I'm not seeing the fatal flaw in the argument.  But I'll admit to not knowing everything. 

Certainly recent history has tended towards defense-first backup catchers.  But I think that's because if you can hit and catch you're a starter.  If you can hit but can't really catch you're usually a first baseman or a DH or a third baseman or something because they want your bat in the lineup and not stunted by constantly taking foul balls off your head.  So that leaves the defense-first guys who OPS .612 as your typical backup catcher. 

But if Chance Sisco can OPS .750 or .775 while playing a passable catcher I'd take that as Rutchman's backup over some generic .600 OPS Paul Bako.

[HowAboutThat]

21 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

A run saved is roughly equal to a run scored, so I'm not seeing the fatal flaw in the argument.  But I'll admit to not knowing everything. 

Certainly recent history has tended towards defense-first backup catchers.  But I think that's because if you can hit and catch you're a starter.  If you can hit but can't really catch you're usually a first baseman or a DH or a third baseman or something because they want your bat in the lineup and not stunted by constantly taking foul balls off your head.  So that leaves the defense-first guys who OPS .612 as your typical backup catcher. 

But if Chance Sisco can OPS .750 or .775 while playing a passable catcher I'd take that as Rutchman's backup over some generic .600 OPS Paul Bako.

Well I don’t think Sisco can play a passable catcher, and his offense leaves a lot to be desired. And although there’s a lot of distance between here and there, I wonder if this new guy was picked up because he is a potential replacement? Tony suggests that he’s just organizational depth, and Tony knows his stuff, but of course we shall see, and you may be right.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Philip

[Ruzious]

15 hours ago, Philip said:

Well I don’t think Sisco can play a passable catcher, and his offense leaves a lot to be desired. And although there’s a lot of distance between here and there, I wonder if this new guy was picked up because he is a potential replacement? Tony suggests that he’s just organizational depth, and Tony knows his stuff, but of course we shall see, and you may be right.

He had a 105 OPS+.  What hitting are you looking for in a backup catcher?