Connolly article on pitching

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Nothing new here. In fact, their take on Hall is on the optimistic side.  No WS since 1983. One ALCS since 1983.  That's 38 years.  Elias has the organization moving in the right direction.  Time to call him a moron, speculate ownership doesn't want to compete, and ask for change!!!!!

Aren’t you also speculating that he is moving the organization in the right direction?

[7Mo]

Do other organization grow all of their starters? The teams in line for the playoffs this year, have they grown all their starting pitchers?

[Frobby]

It is pretty obvious that when the time is right (and maybe beginning next year), the O’s will have to acquire pitching from outside the organization.   And while I agree 100% with Can_of_corn that this is easier said than done, consider Toronto:

Robbie Ray (23 starts) acquired by trade, resigned as a free agent ($8 mm)

Hyun Jin Ryu (23 starts) signed as free agent (4/$80 mm)

Steven Matz (21 starts) acquired in a trade

Ross Stripling (19 starts) acquired in a trade

Jose Berrios (2021 deadline deal) acquired in a trade.

That’s not a great staff, but it’s a competitive one.   They did that, acquired Springer and Semien, and still have a payroll that is $64 mm below their $182 mm peak (they are at $118 mm this year).    

Now, I know C_of_c and some other will say, “there’s no evidence the Angelos brothers will authorize that kind of spending.”   Well, I believe they will.   I think the whole point of the rebuild was to establish a good young homegrown core that could be built around by adding via free agency and trades at the right time.    But we’ll see.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, 7Mo said:

Do other organization grow all of their starters? The teams in line for the playoffs this year, have they grown all their starting pitchers?

Nope.

Pitching comes from all over.

How many of those avenues are going to be present for the O's?

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

Now, I know C_of_c and some other will say, “there’s no evidence the Angelos brothers will authorize that kind of spending.”   Well, I believe they will.   I think the whole point of the rebuild was to establish a good young homegrown core that could be built around by adding via free agency and trades at the right time.    But we’ll see.

I respect the fact that some posters can still be optimistic about ownership.

I just haven't seen much from them that lets me share that view.

If I'm wrong it works out great for everyone.  I get mocked and the O's play a bunch of winning baseball.....assuming that the guys they pay actually perform...

[7Mo]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

How many of those avenues are going to be present for the O's?

Fair question. It seems to me that there will be a reasonable international budget going forward. 

In terms of signing a free agent or trading for a guy with a bigger salary, clearly you're convinced they won't spend the money. I think it's an open question. I don't think something that happened in 2018 or 2014 or 1973 is any guide to whether the brothers will fund a large budget in 2023 or 2024. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, 7Mo said:

Fair question. It seems to me that there will be a reasonable international budget going forward. 

In terms of signing a free agent or trading for a guy with a bigger salary, clearly you're convinced they won't spend the money. I think it's an open question. I don't think something that happened in 2018 or 2014 or 1973 is any guide to whether the brothers will fund a large budget in 2023 or 2024. 

I'm looking at the cuts the brothers have made and using that as my basis.  They let Thorne go over money and cut the coaching staff.  That doesn't scream open the checkbooks to me. 

I do think it's a very good sign that the facility in the Dominican is evidently under construction.  I do wish someone stateside could dig up some details on how that is going.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, 7Mo said:

Fair question. It seems to me that there will be a reasonable international budget going forward. 

In terms of signing a free agent or trading for a guy with a bigger salary, clearly you're convinced they won't spend the money. I think it's an open question. I don't think something that happened in 2018 or 2014 or 1973 is any guide to whether the brothers will fund a large budget in 2023 or 2024. 

No one knows that this ownership group will do.

We know they are investing in things their dad didn’t, which gives us hope.

We also know that on the ML level, they have been very cheap and very cheap with the support staff as well.  Does that mean anything?  Who knows.  It’s all speculation because the question has yet to be answered.

If they do nothing with the staff again this offseason and sign more Matt Harvey guys and project Lopez for the rotation again, I think we will have our answer.

[Aristotelian]

11 minutes ago, 7Mo said:

Do other organization grow all of their starters? The teams in line for the playoffs this year, have they grown all their starting pitchers?

No, but they have shown more willingness to sign a high level SP than the Orioles. Even when we were good our big signing was Ubaldo. When it comes to free agent signings it seems Angelo's is always more impressed with big offensive numbers.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

No, but they have shown more willingness to sign a high level SP than the Orioles. Even when we were good our big signing was Ubaldo. When it comes to free agent signings it seems Angelo's is always more impressed with big offensive numbers.

Angelos doesn’t see pitching as a great long term investment…and he’s right.

The problem is, the Os have to deal with it and get into the mindset that maybe 1-2 years of a contract aren’t going to be good.  If you sign Stroman to a 5/125 deal and he gives you his usual 3-4 WAR season for 3 out of those 5 years, that is a successful contract overall, even if the other 2 years aren’t good.  You just have to look at it that way.

 

 

 

[7Mo]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm looking at the cuts the brothers have made and using that as my basis.  They let Thorne go over money and cut the coaching staff.  That doesn't scream open the checkbooks to me. 

I do think it's a very good sign that the facility in the Dominican is evidently under construction.  I do wish someone stateside could dig up some details on how that is going.

I don't disagree with any of that. 

It's at least possible that in order to keep Holt, he had to be promoted and therefore Brocail leaves. I'm aware of the quote about Brocail leaving over money. It's possible he had to go because his views didn't line up with Holt. 

But I don't see any way to put a positive spin on Thorne. None at all. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, 7Mo said:

I don't disagree with any of that. 

It's at least possible that in order to keep Holt, he had to be promoted and therefore Brocail leaves. I'm aware of the quote about Brocail leaving over money. It's possible he had to go because his views didn't line up with Holt. 

But I don't see any way to put a positive spin on Thorne. None at all. 

Luckily, Thorne not being the broadcaster anymore has zero bearing on whether or not the ML team will be good or do the right thing.

Its fair to wonder if they are going to be cheap about that what else will they be cheap about.

[wildcard]

Means, Grayson, DL Hall, Tyler Wells, Baumann, Bradish, Zimmermann,  Brnovich and Kremer.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Means, Grayson, DL Hall, Tyler Wells, Baumann, Bradish, Zimmermann,  and Brnovich

Hall is hurt, they don’t trust Wells to start, Zimmerman is a back end guy and the other 3 are complete mysteries.

I think one of those guys, along with Grayson and Means will become a starter for us long term.  I don’t think it’s more than that.

This team will, with 100% certainty, have to go out and buy/trade for at least one and likely more than 1 starter. 
 

 

[Sports Guy]

For me, my biggest concern isn’t with ownership…it’s simply about Elias and does he know how to develop pitching?

We hear good things, like the recent talk from Sulser.  We see videos in the offseason that are encouraging.  We hear about the tech they are using and how it’s a help…yet the results suck.

So, what gives?

Connolly mentioned that Elias a call with the media today.  It would be nice if the Baltimore media really went after him today about the pitching and what is being done to get better, why isn’t it developing, etc…

I’m sure he will give some kind of a bs answer but I hope the question is asked and they keep on it.