Kelvin Gutierrez’s defense

[Can_of_corn]

I don't think he's doing a PR job for MLB.  I think it was a PR move by the Astros but I don't think MLB was involved and I think Dusty was more than willing to take the job.

I don't care for him as a manager but it's mostly about the talent.

[Il BuonO]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't understand how, with every team is operating under the same constraints folks are willing to write off an entire season.  This was the plan.  The only thing we missed out on last year was a hundred games of them being bad.   Look at this team, there was nothing that could have happened in a full season last year that would have led to this team being anything other than a train wreck.  If anything it helped Elias since he can keep Adley down another season while the rest of the prospects develop.

But that’s just it, they didn’t develop (except for the select group at Bowie). And that was vs their own guys. How many guys missed out on development? Rutschman and GrayRod benefited? Those two would probably incease their development throwing a ball against a wall or hitting off a tee. Ok, maybe not. But marginal guys? Or, guys drafted outside of the first three rounds? Nah. 

I figured people might disagree on that point and it’s arguable, but you of all people!

Ok, what about being the only team w/ virtually no presence in Latin America before Elias changed it (alright, team Angelos gave the ok-woo hoo!)? How is that the same?

What I’m saying is, Elias-wait-you read the other posts in which I said he needs to get busy? Ok. But otherwise, yes, he was in an unenviable position from the jump. I know, I know-who wouldn’t take a GM job for a ML baseball team? I’m sure it’s not as much a lock as some might think, especially in Baltimore. 

And don’t undersell being spared from viewing these guys for 100 games. Weren’t they in first for a while? You know, the first 20 games or so.

 

[Can_of_corn]

Elias was one of the guys tagged to work on the eliminate minor league teams and do away with drafted players playing games the year they were drafted initiative.

Something like what happened in 2020 should have hurt the Orioles, and their approach, less than other teams.  Compared to the norm it should have been an advantage

Having the signing period altered in the international market should also have been an advantage to a team that is behind.

 

 

[Il BuonO]

32 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think he's doing a PR job for MLB.  I think it was a PR move by the Astros but I don't think MLB was involved and I think Dusty was more than willing to take the job.

I don't care for him as a manager but it's mostly about the talent.

What is it about his managing you don’t like? I’m not a fan either, but wonder if it’s for the same reasons. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

What is it about his managing you don’t like? I’m not a fan either, but wonder if it’s for the same reasons. 

His handling of pitching mostly.  Also he just seems not that great at the tactics level.  Haven't been watching him this year if I'm being honest.

[Il BuonO]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Elias was one of the guys tagged to work on the eliminate minor league teams and do away with drafted players playing games the year they were drafted initiative.

Something like what happened in 2020 should have hurt the Orioles, and their approach, less than other teams.  Compared to the norm it should have been an advantage

Having the signing period altered in the international market should also have been an advantage to a team that is behind.

Eh, don’t understand your first point. You have a link? First I’ve ever heard of that. 

Second, nope. 

Finally, huh? How do the Orioles gain an advantage in the one area in which they were dreadfully far behind? Not buying it. 

Look, I’m not that far off from you in my expectations of where he has them, but I certainly didn’t expect an Astros-style three year turnaround. That wasn’t going to happen.
 

 

[Il BuonO]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

His handling of pitching mostly.  Also he just seems not that great at the tactics level.  Haven't been watching him this year if I'm being honest.

His handling of pitching has been scrutinized since the Cubs and Prior. He isn’t a whiz tactically. I’ve watched plenty of the ‘Stros this year and I  could have them in the same position. They’re good enough to overcome bad tactics. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Il BuonO said:

Eh, don’t understand your first point. You have a link? First I’ve ever heard of that. 

Second, nope. 

Finally, huh? How do the Orioles gain an advantage in the one area in which they were dreadfully far behind? Not buying it. 

Look, I’m not that far off from you in my expectations of where he has them, but I certainly didn’t expect an Astros-style three year turnaround. That wasn’t going to happen.
 

 

I think this is it.  It was a couple years ago and not everything they proposed happened.

https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/mlb-floats-proposal-that-would-eliminate-42-minor-league-teams/

 

Anything that causes a delay helps the teams that are behind, it gives them time to catch up.

 

[Jammer7]

12 hours ago, wildcard said:

Mike: "We're going to be needing infielders next year. I think some of them will be coming from outside the organization  but also guys like him (Mateo) and Urias showed us enough talented and  production that we are going to try to have a place for them in our plans going into the off season."

6:50 into the interview.

https://www.audacy.com/1057thefan/sports/os-gm-mike-elias-talks-os-future-with-the-bbms

Perhaps Elias will bring in an infielder or two. This interview was from 9/16, about 16 days ago. Some things have changed a bit since then. It was before Gutierrez showed some progress, however small sample it is. His process needs to be changed and he seems to be doing so. It would not shock me at all if Elias brings in a legitimate SS, and perhaps a 3B. Urias and Mateo should be back, but there are upgrades available. Jam Jones, well he has a lot to prove. But Gutierrez, for me, has shown more than enough that would have me bring him back. If we DFA him, he will have no trouble getting a job. I put him at a similar status to Mateo, in that his talent is raw and exciting, and there is no way to know what they will bring to the table in 2022. They do not have a track record of great success yet. But then we would not have been able to acquire them on waivers if they did.

For me, I keep him and keep playing him at 3B. I keep Mateo and Urias. I would like to see all three play Winter Ball in the Caribbean. I can see bringing in a Freddy Galvis type and moving him at the deadline when Westburg comes up.

I would likely cut Bannon, and probably Richie Martin as well. Maybe they can move them in minor deals. 

[Can_of_corn]

28 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

Perhaps Elias will bring in an infielder or two. This interview was from 9/16, about 16 days ago. Some things have changed a bit since then. It was before Gutierrez showed some progress, however small sample it is. His process needs to be changed and he seems to be doing so. It would not shock me at all if Elias brings in a legitimate SS, and perhaps a 3B. Urias and Mateo should be back, but there are upgrades available. Jam Jones, well he has a lot to prove. But Gutierrez, for me, has shown more than enough that would have me bring him back. If we DFA him, he will have no trouble getting a job. I put him at a similar status to Mateo, in that his talent is raw and exciting, and there is no way to know what they will bring to the table in 2022. They do not have a track record of great success yet. But then we would not have been able to acquire them on waivers if they did.

For me, I keep him and keep playing him at 3B. I keep Mateo and Urias. I would like to see all three play Winter Ball in the Caribbean. I can see bringing in a Freddy Galvis type and moving him at the deadline when Westburg comes up.

I would likely cut Bannon, and probably Richie Martin as well. Maybe they can move them in minor deals. 

No chance I'd use a 40 man roster spot on Martin.

[Il BuonO]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

I certainly believe he will bring in some other infielders.   Whether they’ll be actual, sure to make the team upgrades or just take a flyer types remains to be seen, and Elias certainly didn’t promise the former.   

So, this exactly. Parse your words carefully, very, very carefully. 

It remains to be seen.

[Aristotelian]

41 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

 But Gutierrez, for me, has shown more than enough that would have me bring him back. If we DFA him, he will have no trouble getting a job. I put him at a similar status to Mateo, in that his talent is raw and exciting, and there is no way to know what they will bring to the table in 2022. They do not have a track record of great success yet. But then we would not have been able to acquire them on waivers if they did.

For me, I keep him and keep playing him at 3B. I keep Mateo and Urias. I would like to see all three play Winter Ball in the Caribbean. I can see bringing in a Freddy Galvis type and moving him at the deadline when Westburg comes up.

I would likely cut Bannon, and probably Richie Martin as well. Maybe they can move them in minor deals. 

I am coming around to this. Even with an IF signing we should be able carry Gutierrez, Mateo, and Urias. That doesn't mean they all play 162 games but they should get enough AB's to continue to be evaluated. 

Jones and Martin have shown nothing. If Mancini is traded, his spot could go to a guy like Harrison who could DH but also play some 3B if one of the infielders isn't working out. As many holes as we have we can't drop any guys that have potential to provide more than replacement value at low cost. Worst case scenario they are assets to be traded. 

[Jammer7]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

No chance I'd use a 40 man roster spot on Martin.

It is unfortunate, but I think his time here may have run its course. Maybe he stays as minor league depth, but someone will want him to come in and compete for a 40 man spot. I wish him well either way. 

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

It is unfortunate, but I think his time here may have run its course. Maybe he stays as minor league depth, but someone will want him to come in and compete for a 40 man spot. I wish him well either way. 

What I find interesting is he has the same career rWAR as Walter Thomas.

[Jammer7]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

What I find interesting is he has the same career rWAR as Walter Thomas.

Interesting. You had me there for a second. And then I remembered that Bancy Thomas is his grandfather. Richie can play defensively. It is a shame he has been set back with all of the injuries.