Can't believe the Orioles are going to Arbitration with Means and Mancini

[wildcard]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

They didn't pay him 4.75M in 2020.

You are right. Because of Covid. But they did in 2021 after getting no production from him in 2020.

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

Just curious whether anyone has insight on this.

The conventional wisdom used to be that going through the arbitration process created a risk of harming the relationship between the club and the player because the club's task in the arbitration presentation and hearing is to show why the player has a lower value than he and his agent think he has. Some players were thought to be, and I think in a few cases said they were, bothered by listening to the team's stress their weaknesses after digging deeply into the statistics.

I don't think I've seen that concern mentioned in recent years. Is it still there, or has the arbitration process become so familiar and routinized that players have learned to expect  and accept their club's critiques, and don't take it personally?

You never want to go to arb.  You also don’t want to bend over for them either.

[maybenxtyr]

9 minutes ago, wildcard said:

The agent is Mancini's employee.  No this in on Mancini.   He is the decision maker.

He's also exercising his right. This is more about the team than the player for me.

[NelsonCruuuuuz]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

 I call them as I see them and while I support Elias and how he's rebuilding this franchise so far, the fact that the Orioles are going to Arbitration with their homegrown top starter (Means) and All-star (Mancini) over a combined $1.1 million difference is embarrasing.

If the number are right, Means wants $3.1 and the Orioles offered $2.7. Really, a $400 K difference for a guy who threw a no-hitter last year? 

As for Mancini, it's a little more tricky because honestly, he's more valuable to the Orioles because of who he is rather than what he brings to the lineup at this point. Saying that, there's what, a 700K difference? The Orioles could not meet him halfway on that? 

For a team with the lowest payroll in baseball, it's embarrassing to be going to arbitration with your two All-star over $1.1 million. 

This is BS. Sometimes it's not always about winning and getting guys for as cheap as you can. I really hope both players win their cases because it's ridiculous that the Orioles could not get this done without arbitration.

Kudos to you for calling it out! Amen! This org is a disgrace and we deserve better!

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

That is assuming that Mancini is interested in settling at the halfway point.

We don't know that he is.

For all we know, that was already proposed.   

[wildcard]

5 minutes ago, maybenxtyr said:

He's also exercising his right. This is more about the team than the player for me.

When I was in business I could exercise my rights but if the company I was working with didn't agree they would never do business with me again.

[Frobby]

35 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I don't care what Mancini and Means make.  I don't care if one or the other wins or they meet in the middle. Its a lot of money either way.  I am a little surprised that Mancini is fighting with the front office and the owner.   They supported him throughout his cancer.  Paid him 4.75m in 2020 and pay him 4.75m in 2021 after receiving no production from him in 2020.

I am surprised that he is not showing them the courtesy they showed him.

Just like I’m not upset with the team, I’m not upset with Mancini either.   It’s pretty well established in arbitration that if a player misses a year due to injury or illness, he gets the same salary the next year, plus or minus $100 k or so.   There’s dozens of examples of that.   So I don’t feel the O’s did Mancini any big favors last year.  That’s the way the system works.   And if the two sides can’t agree on what he should make this year, well, that’s what arbitration is for.   I’d still say there’s a 70% chance the case settles, but if not, there’s no reason to be upset with anyone IMO.    

[wildcard]

14 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Just like I’m not upset with the team, I’m not upset with Mancini either.   It’s pretty well established in arbitration that if a player misses a year due to injury or illness, he gets the same salary the next year, plus or minus $100 k or so.   There’s dozens of examples of that.   So I don’t feel the O’s did Mancini any big favors last year.  That’s the way the system works.   And if the two sides can’t agree on what he should make this year, well, that’s what arbitration is for.   I’d still say there’s a 70% chance the case settles, but if not, there’s no reason to be upset with anyone IMO.    

Very civil of you.   But people are people.  And they have memories.  And that extends to people doing business.

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

Very civil of you.   But people are people.  And they have memories.  And that extends to people doing business.

What is your point?   Do you think the Angelos brothers or Elias are taking it personally that Mancini didn’t accept their offer?   And what difference does it really make in terms of their relationship?   Mancini won’t be here beyond 2022 in any event, and perhaps a shorter time than that if the O’s get a trade offer they like.  

[wildcard]

17 minutes ago, Frobby said:

What is your point?   Do you think the Angelos brothers or Elias are taking it personally that Mancini didn’t accept their offer?   And what difference does it really make in terms of their relationship?   Mancini won’t be here beyond 2022 in any event, and perhaps a shorter time than that if the O’s get a trade offer they like.  

You don't know how long Mancini will be an Orioles.   If he puts up a 900 OPS and helps the O's make a big step forward he may be more valuable to the O's than Santander.   He could stay.

But fighting with ownership and the front office over money does not help his case to stay.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, wildcard said:

You don't know how long Mancini will be an Orioles.   If he puts up a 900 OPS and helps the O's make a big step forward he may be more valuable to the O's then Santander.   He could stay.

But fighting with ownership and the front office over money does not help his case to stay.

More valuable than Santander?

That's what your going with?

 

[wildcard]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

More valuable than Santander?

That's what your going with?

 

Stowers is probably in the majors mid 2022.   There will be a choice for Elias of keeping Santander or Mancini so Stowers get at bats.

[Tony-OH]

23 minutes ago, Frobby said:

What is your point?   Do you think the Angelos brothers or Elias are taking it personally that Mancini didn’t accept their offer?   And what difference does it really make in terms of their relationship?   Mancini won’t be here beyond 2022 in any event, and perhaps a shorter time than that if the O’s get a trade offer they like.  

You are missing the point of this entire thread. Going to arbitration with two of your better players over $1.1 million when you have the lowest payroll in baseball is embarrassing and gives more awful optics across baseball and their fans. 

Sure, arbitration happens all across baseball and the Orioles typically are very good at judging the market, but it should not be too hard to make agreements when $1.1 million is involved. 

It makes the Orioles look bad and it should. 

 

[Three Run Homer]

1 hour ago, spiritof66 said:

Just curious whether anyone has insight on this.

The conventional wisdom used to be that going through the arbitration process created a risk of harming the relationship between the club and the player because the club's task in the arbitration presentation and hearing is to show why the player has a lower value than he and his agent think he has. Some players were thought to be, and I think in a few cases said they were, bothered by listening to the team's stress their weaknesses after digging deeply into the statistics.

I don't think I've seen that concern mentioned in recent years. Is it still there, or has the arbitration process become so familiar and routinized that players have learned to expect  and accept their club's critiques, and don't take it personally?

Sounds like a good topic for a sabermetrician--controlling for player performance and team performance, are players who go to arbitration less likely to re-sign with the same team later on?    

Of course, if the Orioles have already decided they aren't going to re-sign these guys as free agents, then they have no incentive to avoid arbitration.    

[Frobby]

7 minutes ago, wildcard said:

You don't know how long Mancini will be an Orioles.   If he puts up a 900 OPS and helps the O's make a big step forward he may be more valuable to the O's than Santander.   He could stay.

But fighting with ownership and the front office over money does not help his case to stay.

His case to stay is pretty weak, and I don’t think this affects it.   If we didn’t have Mountcastle, he’d have a much stronger case.