Elias prioritizes player development over winning in the majors

[waroriole]

7 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

Here are some recent Cy Young winners and innings pitched in AAA prior to MLB debuts. Only two completely skipped AAA. Of the three with <20 innings in AAA, Porcello was the only one drafted out of high school. Would appear the O's are doing nothing unusual with Grayson and Hall although there is precedent for pitchers to skip AAA and have success.

Robbie Ray 140

Corbin Burnes 78

Bieber 48

Bauer 82 

Verlander 0

Degrom 113

Snell 107

Kluber 160

Porcello 0

Keuchel 128

Arrieta 164

Price 18

Dickey 342

 

Can of Corn, you really missed your calling in being a fan of the Tigers 10-20 years ago. Verlander, Porcello, Bonderman, Scherzer. You’d have loved it. 

[Sports Guy]

Few thoughts…

1) I don’t think the idea of rushing a player exists.  I think that’s a made up thing because people hear teams say it but teams don’t push guys as fast as they could because of the rules, service time, etc…Obviously if you took a HS pitcher and put him in the majors after being drafted, that’s rushing but thats an extreme example that never happens.  So when I say rushing doesn’t exist, I’m talking about normal examples and GRod and Hall would be normal examples.  Again, if the service time rules were different, teams would be more aggressive with promoting guys and tells you all you need to know about the importance of development in the minors.

2) I think there is something to be said about using the ML ball in AAA.  I think the point gets very overrated on here but having them get used to it is fine.  
 

3) The second part to #2 is that when you slow play them in AA (as the Os did for GRod and as they seem to be doing for Hall  now), it takes longer to get to the point of using that ball.  So, if the goal is to make sure they throw some with it, get them to AAA quickly, especially when they are treating AA like it’s nothing.

4) you absolutely can still develop in the majors.  Many people here and around the game think Holt is some great pitching coach.  Why not work with him?

5). Last year it was (poorly) argued that Adley should stay in the minors in part to work with the pitchers that he will be catching later.  Adley is going to be up here very soon.  Why doesn’t that argument carry over?

 

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, Going Underground said:

The problem with DL. Hall is he only threw 31 2 innings last year with 7 starts. Not sure how many innings the Orioles will let him pitch this year.

Elias answered that question, more or less:

“Given the carefulness with which we want to get him back up into that four- or five-inning neighborhood and kind of get him off and running, we’ll keep him down (south) for just a longer spring training. Just because we can, and also we are going to have to be watching his innings this year. We don’t want him to have some crazy short season just because he threw 40 innings last year. We want him to have a nice, long, 100-inning type season or more, but we have to be mindful of that and we can’t just blow a bunch of innings up front. So, everything made sense to keep him in Florida for a bit, let him get ramped up and get everything perfect and then send him out.”

https://www.masnsports.com/steve-melewski/2022/03/dl-hall-lights-up-gun-in-impressive-spring-outing.html

 

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Elias answered that question, more or less:

“Given the carefulness with which we want to get him back up into that four- or five-inning neighborhood and kind of get him off and running, we’ll keep him down (south) for just a longer spring training. Just because we can, and also we are going to have to be watching his innings this year. We don’t want him to have some crazy short season just because he threw 40 innings last year. We want him to have a nice, long, 100-inning type season or more, but we have to be mindful of that and we can’t just blow a bunch of innings up front. So, everything made sense to keep him in Florida for a bit, let him get ramped up and get everything perfect and then send him out.”

https://www.masnsports.com/steve-melewski/2022/03/dl-hall-lights-up-gun-in-impressive-spring-outing.html

 

Does anyone know what ball they use at extended ST?

[Frobby]

29 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Does anyone know what ball they use at extended ST?

Whatever one they want, probably.   But that’s a good question.  

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Frobby said:

Whatever one they want, probably.   But that’s a good question.  

Part of what I’m wondering is if Hall starts in extended ST and they are using the ML ball, I would think they wouldn’t send him to AA after using that.  Doesn’t make sense to get him used to the ML ball and then use a different ball and then back to the ML ball.

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Part of what I’m wondering is if Hall starts in extended ST and they are using the ML ball, I would think they wouldn’t send him to AA after using that.  Doesn’t make sense to get him used to the ML ball and then use a different ball and then back to the ML ball.

Yes, that makes sense.   

[forphase1]

This whole ball thing is silly.  The same ball should be used at all levels of the minors.  Yeah, it'd cost a bit more I'm sure but it just makes sense to have all the professional players in the entire organization using the same ball.  I know that's not a call the Orioles can make on their own, but MLB should make that change.  It's just dumb for it to be different IMO.

[OriolesMagic83]

52 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

This whole ball thing is silly.  The same ball should be used at all levels of the minors.  Yeah, it'd cost a bit more I'm sure but it just makes sense to have all the professional players in the entire organization using the same ball.  I know that's not a call the Orioles can make on their own, but MLB should make that change.  It's just dumb for it to be different IMO.

Yeah, just nickel and diming the minor leagues and minor leaguers is ridiculous.  I believe there is a class action lawsuit now to force MLB to pay minor leaguers minimum wages. 

[Jammer7]

3 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Few thoughts…

1) I don’t think the idea of rushing a player exists.  I think that’s a made up thing because people hear teams say it but teams don’t push guys as fast as they could because of the rules, service time, etc…Obviously if you took a HS pitcher and put him in the majors after being drafted, that’s rushing but thats an extreme example that never happens.  So when I say rushing doesn’t exist, I’m talking about normal examples and GRod and Hall would be normal examples.  Again, if the service time rules were different, teams would be more aggressive with promoting guys and tells you all you need to know about the importance of development in the minors.

2) I think there is something to be said about using the ML ball in AAA.  I think the point gets very overrated on here but having them get used to it is fine.  
 

3) The second part to #2 is that when you slow play them in AA (as the Os did for GRod and as they seem to be doing for Hall  now), it takes longer to get to the point of using that ball.  So, if the goal is to make sure they throw some with it, get them to AAA quickly, especially when they are treating AA like it’s nothing.

4) you absolutely can still develop in the majors.  Many people here and around the game think Holt is some great pitching coach.  Why not work with him?

5). Last year it was (poorly) argued that Adley should stay in the minors in part to work with the pitchers that he will be catching later.  Adley is going to be up here very soon.  Why doesn’t that argument carry over?

 

We disagree on some, agree on others. I know I will not change your opinion, I am not delusional.

Young pitchers, in particular, are still growing and forming muscle and stamina in their early and mid 20’s. The minor league environment is more conducive for most to build strength, shape pitches, and find out what works for them as they climb the ladder. The thought is that this will help mitigate the injuries and get more value from their prospects as they are more consistent and build more confidence. It isn’t just the Orioles.

One of the biggest changes in player development is strength, conditioning and injury prevention/mitigation. The Orioles place a huge emphasis on this. Though you would not know it by looking at Keegan Akin or Yusniel Diaz. 

That said, I could see them bringing Rodriguez or Hall up to develop them in the pen if there was an established legitimate veteran rotation that each went six innings on a nightly basis. If the major league environment was much more stable. Not in the train wreck that is Baltimore at the moment.

I don’t think Holt is some great pitching coach, not a major league one anyway. I think another organization was going to hire him away from the Orioles and they were forced to promote him to his current role. I think his previous minor league coordinator role was better suited to his skill set. 

The ball differences are ridiculous, and I think it is less of a big deal for most. Some do have problems with the differences, but it is overblown.

Adley should have finished the year in Baltimore. And he should start the year there in 2022 as soon as he is able. He did make strides last year in the minors, but he was ready in July. 

[Tony-OH]

14 hours ago, owknows said:

You are aware of course, of the idea of developing a player.

The notion of spending time mastering a level of competition before facing the next level. And yet you behave as if this concept is a complete mystery to you... and that it is incredulous that anyone would suggest there's a reason for it.

This is your standard hyperbolic nonsense, followed by a few anecdotal examples.

You know that the minors exist for a reason. You're aware that every level of competition skipped raises the possibility of adverse performance. And you're aware that some players, if pushed too hard, begin to doubt themselves and their ability. And you're aware that self-doubt can destroy a player from time to time.

Pretending you don't understand these things to bolster a point on the internet is kinda silly.

There is also an economic standpoint of not having guys in the majors before they are ready. Some fail to grasp that concept and just think you bring the best 25 forward and go with that. Unfortunately, it makes little sense to have guys struggle at the major league level while accruing major league time. 

It makes the most sense to bring guys up when they are ready for their roles at the big league level unless the team is a contender and needs that prospect to fulfill another role in order to get into the playoffs.

[Sports Guy]

There are plenty of pitchers that come to the majors at age 23 or younger.

As I said, you don’t rush a HS pitcher immediately but once they have been around for 3 or 4 years or you get college guys, they are physically ready.  
 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

There is also an economic standpoint of not having guys in the majors before they are ready. Some fail to grasp that concept and just think you bring the best 25 forward and go with that. Unfortunately, it makes little sense to have guys struggle at the major league level while accruing major league time. 

It makes the most sense to bring guys up when they are ready for their roles at the big league level unless the team is a contender and needs that prospect to fulfill another role in order to get into the playoffs.

What is “ready”?  Who defines that?  

[Tony-OH]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

What is “ready”?  Who defines that?  

The organizational leaders like Elias, Sig, Blood, minor league manager, scouts? 

Not sure what you are going for here.

None of the pitchers returned to the minors have shown an ability to hold stuff into 100 pitches because they weren't allowed to go over 80 last year. 

Bradish is the only one with AAA experience and yes, I could certainly build an argument for him to be there on opening day, but I also think he's going to spend most of 2022 with the Orioles anyways so it really doesn't matter.

[Roll Tide]

They can and will do whatever they want. This year they will draw less than 10,000 per game and wonder why. 
and lose 100 games again