Voth/Harvey

[Tony-OH]

12 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

The Mets also had Dave Magadan, who was part of that now-extinct species of good-glove, 4-homer first baseman who could sometimes hit .300.  The world of 1987 obviously thought more of him than Milligan.

Part of Milligans' problem was his middling stats against right-handers where he tOPS+ was just 91 over his career compared to 115 vs lefties. Say what you want about Magaden's awful power, but his tOPS+ over his career against right-handers was 108. 

With the majority of pitchers being right-handed, I could see why a team would want a left-handed hitting first baseman who hits right-handers better, even if it didn't come with power. 

Now, from 1989 to 1992 (Milligan's core years with Orioles), Milligan ended up putting up a 130 OPS+ and 11.1 rWAR and made $1,760,00 with the Orioles while Magaden put up a 122 OPS+ and 10.2 dWAR while making $3,208,750 with the Mets. So at the end of the day, Milligan was definitely a better value during that peak time, but we also have to remember that Magaden played a lot of 3B during that time as well. Milligan according to rtot was a little better than average from 1989-1991 defensively at 1B while Magaden was below average at 3B but above average at 1B during this time.

It really is an interesting comparison of two guys who were pretty close yet one made almost double the money by playing in New York vs Baltimore.

[NedFromYork]

BTW. Keith Hernandez is a player I'd like to see in the HOF.  Curious how his WAR and defensive value stack up.

Oh and I'd take Voth over Harvey.  I think next year's OD rotation is FA, Kremer, Wells, Voth and Bradish.  Means building strength up on MILB rehab begore retunung to MLB.  Watkins and Rodriguez in the wings.  D.L. Hall gets the Wells treatment next year and if they see something amd their is a need, lengthen him out next offseason.

Edited September 15, 2022 by NedFromYork

[Frobby]

55 minutes ago, NedFromYork said:

BTW. Keith Hernandez is a player I'd like to see in the HOF.  Curious how his WAR and defensive value stack up.

Hernandez was worth 60.3 rWAR, a bit shy compared to most Hall of Famers but higher than some.  In his first year on the ballot, he had the 7th highest WAR of any eligible player, but finished 24th on the ballot.  There were seven players on that ballot who had a lower career WAR total than Hernandez but eventually made the HOF:

Joe Torre 57.5

Tony Perez 54.0

Minnie Minoso 53.8

Jim Kaat 50.5

Jim Rice 47.7

Tony Oliva 43.0

Bruce Sutter 24.0

Hernandez stayed on the ballot for 9 years but topped out at 10.8% of the votes and eventually fell below the 5% threshold to stay on the ballot.

 

 

 

[SteveA]

3 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Imagine typing that post in 1988.  The first question would be "what the heck is an analytics department?" Wonder how many players could have been solid MLBers but nobody had the data or the tools to figure out what they needed? Or on the other hand, how many stars wouldn't been much if analytics had been there and figured out a strategy to attack their weaknesses that they had no way to counter?

If you could take Elias' guys and data to 1989 the O's would win 120.

Send me back to 1940 with one 1990s era personal computer that has the Basic programming language on it and I'll crack the Enigma code years earlier than they did and end WW2 in 1943.

[DrungoHazewood]

3 hours ago, NedFromYork said:

BTW. Keith Hernandez is a player I'd like to see in the HOF.  Curious how his WAR and defensive value stack up.

Oh and I'd take Voth over Harvey.  I think next year's OD rotation is FA, Kremer, Wells, Voth and Bradish.  Means building strength up on MILB rehab begore retunung to MLB.  Watkins and Rodriguez in the wings.  D.L. Hall gets the Wells treatment next year and if they see something amd their is a need, lengthen him out next offseason.

Hernandez is a worthy HOFer, although like @Frobby said his 60 WAR is below most recently BBWAA inductees, but also above most of the Vet's Committee selections.  

He's an interesting case for WAR debates because his defensive contributions are as high or higher than some shortstops like Jeter.  Which is kind of how it should work - an epic defensive first baseman should be about as valuable as a not-so-good defensive shortstop.  That validates the positional adjustment in my mind.  

If Hernandez had been right handed he almost certainly would have been a pretty good 3B/SS/2B.

[Moose Milligan]

Firmly convinced that Hernandez isn't in the HoF because of his problems with the booger sugar.  

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Firmly convinced that Hernandez isn't in the HoF because of his problems with the booger sugar.  

That's strike one.  Strike two is he smokes, so Elaine had to dump him.  Strike three is his involvement with the magic loogy situation, even if Roger McDowell was the real heavy.

[NedFromYork]

I think he will eventually get in.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, NedFromYork said:

I think he will eventually get in.

There are 711 non-pitchers in history with 15 to 30 WAR (not including Negro Leaguers with shorter schedules).  Three of them are in the Hall. Tommy McCarthy, Lloyd Waner, and Freddie Lindstrom. The Hall has been voting on players since 1936, so a 15-30 WAR non-pitcher is inducted about once every 29 years.  That means that (if trends hold) all 711 current players in this range (and I think we can assume all of the more productive players such as Keith Hernandez as well) will be inducted by the year 22,318.

Yes, I understand that more 15-30 WAR players will be created every year over the next 22,000 odd years but we're going to ignore that for the purposes of this stupid exercise.

Edited September 16, 2022 by DrungoHazewood

[Just Regular]

On Moose being slow to get a job, so was Edgar Martinez who was close to his contemporary and kind of the most prominent Guy Who Can Really Hit that MLB of the 80's took some time to recognize.

[NedFromYork]

22 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

There are 711 non-pitchers in history with 15 to 30 WAR (not including Negro Leaguers with shorter schedules).  Three of them are in the Hall. Tommy McCarthy, Lloyd Waner, and Freddie Lindstrom. The Hall has been voting on players since 1936, so a 15-30 WAR non-pitcher is inducted about once every 29 years.  That means that (if trends hold) all 711 current players in this range (and I think we can assume all of the more productive players such as Keith Hernandez as well) will be inducted by the year 22,318.

Yes, I understand that more 15-30 WAR players will be created every year over the next 22,000 odd years but we're going to ignore that for the purposes of this stupid exercise.

Ok, very interesting.  Hernandez has 60 WAR though so I am unsure what you are trying to say, probably just over my head.

Edited September 17, 2022 by NedFromYork

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, NedFromYork said:

Ok, very interesting.  Hernandez has 60 WAR though so I am unsure what you are trying to say, probably just over my head.

Nah, I'm just being stupid, extrapolating out the date where everyone as good as the worst current HOFer will be inducted.

[NedFromYork]

Got it!