Ramon Urias 29th percentile in arm strentgh

[Jammer7]

As I understand the metric, it is based on all those who played 3B, correct? Or is it all infielders? Or what?

I would just add that some infielders rarely throw the ball harder than they need to for an out to be recorded. Tony Fernandez, for instance, was notorious for throwing the ball just in time to get a runner.

I don’t think Ramon has a cannon, but the eyes say average 3B when he throws from foul territory behind 3B. His average may only be 81 or so, but what is his max velo? I could not find that on Savant. 

[Frobby]

6 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Hmm, interesting. Now of course this assumes each 3B has the same release time which as we know, is not going to be the same. Using the average velocity for infielders is tough because not every throw needs full power and we know infielders will take MPH for accuracy if the runners are slow or the ball got to them particularly fast. 

I honestly think max throwing MPH might be better to use, but I haven't done the study. These MPHs are nice to know, but I'm not sure they give us the full story.

I agree.  Also, think about it.  A batted ball takes less than a second to get to 3B.  It take just slightly more than a second to be thrown to 1B.  But it takes a runner four seconds to get there.  So, that leaves about two seconds for the fielder to glove the ball, transfer and make the throw.   The subtle differences in how long it takes to do that can easily make up for the 0.05 seconds that make up the difference between Urias’ velocity and the average velocity.   I’d be bold enough to say that transfer/release time is more important than the velocity differences in the throws, once you are talking about major league velocity ranges.   

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

I agree.  Also, think about it.  A batted ball takes less than a second to get to 3B.  It take just slightly more than a second to be thrown to 1B.  But it takes a runner four seconds to get there.  So, that leaves about two seconds for the fielder to glove the ball, transfer and make the throw.   The subtle differences in how long it takes to do that can easily make up for the 0.05 seconds that make up the difference between Urias’ velocity and the average velocity.   I’d be bold enough to say that transfer/release time is more important than the velocity differences in the throws, once you are talking about major league velocity ranges.   

Uggh, I just had a long reply wiped out by an inadvertent mouse click.

To summarize, I agree that transfer/release is as important or more important than pure arm strength on many throws.

The other thing to consider is that Urias' max velocity of 87.3 is just .4 MPH below the 50th percentile for 3B. In other words, when he needs it, he's about average. 

 

[Frobby]

27 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Uggh, I just had a long reply wiped out by an inadvertent mouse click.

To summarize, I agree that transfer/release is as important or more important than pure arm strength on many throws.

The other thing to consider is that Urias' max velocity of 87.3 is just .4 MPH below the 50th percentile for 3B. In other words, when he needs it, he's about average. 

 

Yes, that’s important.  I guess another question is how does the player generate his velocity and what kind of carry does he have on his throws.  Maybe there’s a guy who can throw really fast when he takes the time to really step into his throw, and then you get a guy like Manny who can be falling away 10 feet into foul territory and still get something on his throw.

[emmett16]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

I agree.  Also, think about it.  A batted ball takes less than a second to get to 3B.  It take just slightly more than a second to be thrown to 1B.  But it takes a runner four seconds to get there.  So, that leaves about two seconds for the fielder to glove the ball, transfer and make the throw.   The subtle differences in how long it takes to do that can easily make up for the 0.05 seconds that make up the difference between Urias’ velocity and the average velocity.   I’d be bold enough to say that transfer/release time is more important than the velocity differences in the throws, once you are talking about major league velocity ranges.   

Historically correct take.  Same with catcher pop-time.  Historically people always coached quick transfer and release as the way to quickest pop time or IF throw.  You can now quantify the time it takes for both.  What has been found is that transfer time has a ceiling and the only area for true improvement comes on the throw.  So yes, the transfer is super important and paramount to success but it has a ceiling.  Transfer is the basis for entry and arm strength is the differentiator between the truly elite.  

[emmett16]

3 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Historically correct take.  Same with catcher pop-time.  Historically people always coached quick transfer and release as the way to quickest pop time or IF throw.  You can now quantify the time it takes for both.  What has been found is that transfer time has a ceiling and the only area for true improvement comes on the throw.  So yes, the transfer is super important and paramount to success but it has a ceiling.  Transfer is the basis for entry and arm strength is the differentiator between the truly elite.  

Let me clarify this statement by saying the above is true in a vacuum.  Arm accuracy, positioning, game situation etc. all take on importance which is why some of the best of all time are not the ones with the strongest arms.  

[emmett16]

Here is an article that breaks down catcher pop times as it relates a to transfer and throw on a similar distance to 3b.  Has some numbers in there people were playing with. 
 

https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/2018/10/catchers-voyage-towards-velocity/
 

I’ll try to find info on Infield work.  

[Moose Milligan]

11 hours ago, Frobby said:

OK, here we go. To start, 1 mph = 1.46 ft/sec.  Urias’ throws average 81.5 mph = 119 ft/sec.  The distance from 3B to 1B is 127.2 feet.  So, a throw by Urias from 3B to 1B takes 1.069 seconds.   

The average 3B throws 85.7 mph which is 125.1 ft/sec.   So that throw takes 1.015 seconds.  Urias’ throw takes 0.054 seconds longer.  

it takes a really fast runner about 0.32 seconds to run the final ten feet to 1B.  So, the difference between the Urias throw and the average throw is about 1.7 feet for the runner.  A sprinting stride is about 7 feet.   So, the different between an average Urias throw and a league average 3B throw is about a quarter-stride.  


 

Train A leaves San Francisco at 1pm traveling 120 MPH and Train B leaves Chicago at 2:30 PM traveling 85 MPH...

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Train A leaves San Francisco at 1pm traveling 120 MPH and Train B leaves Chicago at 2:30 PM traveling 85 MPH...

I was really good at those questions….

But I prefer Steven Wright’s question: “If you are in a car traveling at the speed of light, and you turn your lights on, do they do anything?” 

[Frobby]

29 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Here is an article that breaks down catcher pop times as it relates a to transfer and throw on a similar distance to 3b.  Has some numbers in there people were playing with. 
 

https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/2018/10/catchers-voyage-towards-velocity/
 

I’ll try to find info on Infield work.  

Here’s my question about this.  In MLB, transfer time varies between 0.63 and 0.84.  Pop time varies between 1.82 and 2.12.   But it only takes 0.98 to 1.20 seconds for the throw to travel from home plate to 2B.  So it seems there’s some element of pop time not accounted for by transfer time and arm strength.  Adley for example averages 86.3 mph which equates to 1.00 seconds to throw to 2B, and his transfer time is 0.76, which adds up to 1.76, yet his total pop time is 1.93.   So where’s the other 0.17 seconds?   Maybe it’s because velocity is measured at release, not for the entire 127 feet?

[Tony-OH]

14 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Here’s my question about this.  In MLB, transfer time varies between 0.63 and 0.84.  Pop time varies between 1.82 and 2.12.   But it only takes 0.98 to 1.20 seconds for the throw to travel from home plate to 2B.  So it seems there’s some element of pop time not accounted for by transfer time and arm strength.  Adley for example averages 86.3 mph which equates to 1.00 seconds to throw to 2B, and his transfer time is 0.76, which adds up to 1.76, yet his total pop time is 1.93.   So where’s the other 0.17 seconds?   Maybe it’s because velocity is measured at release, not for the entire 127 feet?

That would be my guess. Also, accuracy and distance from the bag are not always the same or exact. When we start splitting seconds up there are a lot of things that start to come into play. 

[MarCakes21]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Train A leaves San Francisco at 1pm traveling 120 MPH and Train B leaves Chicago at 2:30 PM traveling 85 MPH...

Who reaches first base first.

[NCRaven]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I was really good at those questions….

But I prefer Steven Wright’s question: “If you are in a car traveling at the speed of light, and you turn your lights on, do they do anything?” 

It’s a small world.  But, I wouldn’t want to paint it.

[emmett16]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Here’s my question about this.  In MLB, transfer time varies between 0.63 and 0.84.  Pop time varies between 1.82 and 2.12.   But it only takes 0.98 to 1.20 seconds for the throw to travel from home plate to 2B.  So it seems there’s some element of pop time not accounted for by transfer time and arm strength.  Adley for example averages 86.3 mph which equates to 1.00 seconds to throw to 2B, and his transfer time is 0.76, which adds up to 1.76, yet his total pop time is 1.93.   So where’s the other 0.17 seconds?   Maybe it’s because velocity is measured at release, not for the entire 127 feet?

A couple things to consider would be

-pitch type/location (slow and low will result in slightly different foot work and release point)

-accuracy of throw (where fielder receives the ball - out in front, behind, left, or right of bag)

 

 

[byrdz]

Maybe it’s all those throws from the knees and falling away?