Jump to content

Cease vs everyone else


Sports Guy

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

That's fair.  If he's offered a QO, he's accepting the QO.  The draft pick doesn't really factor in.  It's all about the team control of Santander in that path.

It will be interesting to see.  I could see another team offering him 3/45 and him taking that financial security over the QO.  This assumes his 2024 is on par with his last couple of years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

That's fair.  If he's offered a QO, he's accepting the QO.  The draft pick doesn't really factor in.  It's all about the team control of Santander in that path.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  If he puts up another 30 Hr 30 2b season, he'd be looking at multiyear deals that far outstripped 20 in total value.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, StottyByNature said:

It will be interesting to see.  I could see another team offering him 3/45 and him taking that financial security over the QO.  This assumes his 2024 is on par with his last couple of years.

I think 3/45 would be the lowend of what he's looking at with another "typical" season, and yeah, I think he'd take that over 1/20.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, StottyByNature said:

It will be interesting to see.  I could see another team offering him 3/45 and him taking that financial security over the QO.  This assumes his 2024 is on par with his last couple of years.

He doesn’t get to wait to decide.  He’s got a couple of days to decide whether to take the QO, and won’t know if some team is going to offer him a multi-year deal.   

I think he can watch what happens this winter with Teoscar Hernandez and get a sense of what his market will look like.  Of course, it also depends what kind of season Santander has in 2024.   Hernandez has had a better career than Santander but had a down season this year before hitting free agency.  
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I think 3/45 would be the lowend of what he's looking at with another "typical" season, and yeah, I think he'd take that over 1/20.

We did a poll earlier this offseason and most people said 3/$50 mm or more.  I said probably 4/$75 mm or more, based on a comp with Castellanos, who got 5/$100 mm.  Of course, all contingent on Santander having a similar season in 2024 to 2022/23.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Frobby said:

We did a poll earlier this offseason and most people said 3/$50 mm or more.  I said probably 4/$75 mm or more, based on a comp with Castellanos, who got 5/$100 mm.  Of course, all contingent on Santander having a similar season in 2024 to 2022/23.  

 

I remember that thread, and I believe I said 4/80, which others suggested was too high, and perhaps with hindsight they were correct.

I'm still fairly confident, if Santander has another season as he has the last two, he'd get a multi-year deal that made turning down the QO the smart thing to do.

Something I think that would lend to that is something that hasn't been discussed, but he would in this hypothetical hit the market being viewed as a "winner"/a "winning player."  He would be seen as a young vet leader that was instrumental in one of the historic turnarounds the game has ever seen.  It's not everything, but it's something.  Nobody is going to have to worry about fitting in the clubhouse, or committed to winning, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I'm not sure I agree with that.  If he puts up another 30 Hr 30 2b season, he'd be looking at multiyear deals that far outstripped 20 in total value.

But let’s say he can get a 3/50 deal but can make 21ishM in 2025. I could see him taking that and betting that in 2026-2027 that he could make 30M or more and perhaps a longer term deal than that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Beavers was 6’4” 206 at age 21/22 last year. How long do you think he’s going to stay that size?  He might be able to play some LF right now in OPACY, but he won’t be 22 and 206 lbs in 2025’+

Is there something that prevents a bigger guy from playing center?  Heck, Judge played a lot of CF at 6'7"/ 280ish last year.  A lot of bigger guys have played center field, Dave Winfield, Mike Trout and Byron Buxton come to mind immediately.  Buxton isn't playing center now because of his repeated injuries not because of his ability.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Sports Guy said:

But let’s say he can get a 3/50 deal but can make 21ishM in 2025. I could see him taking that and betting that in 2026-2027 that he could make 30M or more and perhaps a longer term deal than that.

Maybe.  Players tend to like longer contracts and more guaranteed money for a number of reasons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, StottyByNature said:

I actually think Santander is a prime QO candidate.  You either get a comp pick for him or you slightly overpay for a year of his prime.  Keeps payroll flexibility while maintaining an important player on the team, or get some value if he walks.  I don't think he'd garner much in the trade market so I'm happy to hang on to him.

I agree with btdart20 that if Santander is offered a QO, he'll take it, and right away 20% of a $100 million active payroll is tied up in one player.  It is hard to justify risking that happening for a player you believe won't garner much in the trade market.  It's also hard to see Santander improving to the point where $20 million is warranted in light of all the other options.

Elias doesn't strike me as someone likely to gamble that way.  If he doesn't trade Santander this offseason then it's because he believes he will provide $12 million worth of value in 2024.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Sure but betting on themselves isn’t uncommon either.

Either way, I would not be making any AS decision with thought that the would walk away from a QO.

Agree with the above.  He’s going to play next year @ 29y/o.  A one year contract for a productive 30y/o wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world.  I think the O’s are in a win/win position with him.   He’s likely to produce the next two years.  If he does and walks we get a pick, if he doesn’t and stays we get solid production, at market value, from a guy that can cover a couple positions.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Sure but betting on themselves isn’t uncommon either.

Either way, I would not be making any AS decision with thought that the would walk away from a QO.

Santander would be an interesting case.  His health has been better in recent years, but there has been enough to keep him off the field that I could see the longer deal being more appealing.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, 24fps said:

I agree with btdart20 that if Santander is offered a QO, he'll take it, and right away 20% of a $100 million active payroll is tied up in one player.  It is hard to justify risking that happening for a player you believe won't garner much in the trade market.  It's also hard to see Santander improving to the point where $20 million is warranted in light of all the other options.

Elias doesn't strike me as someone likely to gamble that way.  If he doesn't trade Santander this offseason then it's because he believes he will provide $12 million worth of value in 2024.

Isn’t the value of WAR ~$8MM this year?  At 3.0 WAR he was worth $24MM this year.  I think he has just about hit his ceiling, but I could see him bumping up to a 3.5 WAR player the next couple of years. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Posts

    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
    • I think if we get the fun sprinkler loving Gunnar that was in the dugout yesterday, I don’t think we have to worry about him pressing. He seemed loose and feeling good with the other guys he was with, like Kremer.
    • I was a lot younger back then, but that betrayal hit really hard because he had been painting himself as literally holier than thou, and shook his finger to a congressional committee and then barely 2 weeks later failed the test.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...