Jump to content

Framber Valdez vs everyone else


Billy F-Face3

Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, HakunaSakata said:

We're talking about missing bats. That's it. Cease's WHIP is high because he walks more batters. Valdez's WHIP is high because he doesn't miss as many bats. It's really that simple. 

Except that Valdez doesn’t have a high WHIP.  His WHIP is well below league average.  For that matter, Cease’s career 1.305 is roughly league average.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Except that Valdez doesn’t have a high WHIP.  His WHIP is well below league average.  For that matter, Cease’s career 1.305 is roughly league average.  

He’s not saying the WHIp is high. He’s essentially saying if Valdez missed more bats, their would be less balls in play, therefore his WHIP would be even lower.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He’s not saying the WHIp is high. He’s essentially saying if Valdez missed more bats, their would be less balls in play, therefore his WHIP would be even lower.

 

Oh.  I guess I misinterpreted the words “Valdez’s WHIP is high.”   

  • Haha 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

Oh.  I guess I misinterpreted the words “Valdez’s WHIP is high.”   

I think he’s just talking about it being high in the context of its higher than it would be if he missed more bats.

I don’t think (maybe I’m wrong) that he believes the actual number is high but the context of the conversation is based around missing bats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Using WHIP to somehow argue Cease's value over Valdez's is simply illogical.  If he is saying that if Valdez gave up fewer hits his WHIP would be lower... well, duh.  That's is true of every pitcher in history who gave up at least one hit.  Valdez historically has yielded fewer base runners per inning than Cease by a statistically relevant amount.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Oh.  I guess I misinterpreted the words “Valdez’s WHIP is high.”   

If you go back to my first reply my words were "for the majority of his career" Valdez has had a bad WHIP and as someone else pointed out I wasn't trying to make an apples to apples comparision between Valdez and Cease's WHIP. I was just using it as an example to make a point about Valdez not missing as many bats.  Yes, Valdez has been a better pitcher so far in his career, but if Cease costs less to trade for then I'd rather have him because he's younger and I think his pitching skill set will age better. 

This is officially my last post/reply about Valdez and missing bats because I've been fillibustered out of caring. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

Yes, Valdez has been a better pitcher so far in his career, but if Cease costs less to trade for then I'd rather have him

This I can agree with.  All things being equal, Valdez is the better fit for the Orioles because he has had the better, more consistent career thus far, had the better season in 2023, and is left-handed.  All things are rarely equal, however.  I might be willing to pay a little more for Valdez, but there eventually is a price point at which the cost difference exceeds the degree to which the fit favors Valdez.  Both are good pitchers, and I'd be happy with either, provided the cost makes sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Frobby said:

I’d be happy getting either pitcher, but I’d rather have Valdez if the value exchanged was equal.  Simply put, he’s more consistent.   Cease has a higher ceiling but Valdez is highly likely to be a well above average starter.   

And because of that, the cost won’t be equal even with him having a higher salary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And because of that, the cost won’t be equal even with him having a higher salary.

I think that’s true, and depending what the demanded return for each pitcher is, that might cause me to prefer a Cease trade to a Valdez trade.   But you really can’t say without knowing what return is demanded for each pitcher.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’d be happy getting either pitcher, but I’d rather have Valdez if the value exchanged was equal.  Simply put, he’s more consistent.   Cease has a higher ceiling but Valdez is highly likely to be a well above average starter.   

I agree.  They both have their pros & cons but both are very productive pitchers. Consistency matters and while WHIFF is fantastic, the emphasize on missing bats is a bit overblown.  From the article I posted in Best Pitches of 2023 thread….

“Sinkers differentiate from four-seamers in many ways. The most obvious is that the sinker’s value is tied towards generating low run value contact in the form of ground balls. An average four-seamer will likely outweigh a “good” sinker in its ability to generate whiffs, but it won’t necessarily outweigh it in its ability to negate runs.”

  • Upvote 1
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Posts

    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
    • I think if we get the fun sprinkler loving Gunnar that was in the dugout yesterday, I don’t think we have to worry about him pressing. He seemed loose and feeling good with the other guys he was with, like Kremer.
    • I was a lot younger back then, but that betrayal hit really hard because he had been painting himself as literally holier than thou, and shook his finger to a congressional committee and then barely 2 weeks later failed the test.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...