Jackson Holliday spring training watch

[maybenxtyr]

24 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think they’ll be different types of players.  Holliday will hit for better average, and probably put up the higher OBP.   Gunnar started last year with a high OBP, but found his passivity was hurting his BA and his power and became more aggressive.   I’m going to be interested to see (1) if Gunnar finds a way to start bringing his OBP back up without sacrificing his aggressiveness, and (2) whether Holliday will encounter some of the same issues Gunnar did.   

As to who’s better long term, I think Gunnar has set the bar pretty high.  Holliday may be able to hurdle it, but he’ll have to prove it.  
 

I agree with everything you said here. 

 

It's going to be fun watching this group of players this year. I don't think I've been this excited for the season to begin since I was a kid. 

[Just Regular]

I have Gunnar's monthly O-Swing percentile readouts from 2023 at:

95-93-51-91-26-25

The 95-93 April/May was his 2-month visit to the Mendoza Line.    The 26-25 August/September was as he was seizing Rookie of the Year.

No doubt in my mind selectivity flirting with passivity is trained into the Sigbot's Bats - Cowser being today's biggest case where there still feels like a ton of range on where he could end up - on the league OBP leaderboard or back at AAA.

I believe Adley Rutschman commands the strike zone authoritatively and that's the name of the game, but I still don't feel sure who Gunnar-Cowser are in that respect.   The Year 1 returns look good for Holliday authentically being another Adley-level guy.

Ryan Mountcastle is 4.4 years older than Gunnar Henderson, and by virtue of that lived a different training regimen from 18-22.

[Say O!]

Gunnar physical attributes at 6-3 // 200lbs will stand out in comparison to Jackson at 6-0 // 180.  So I don’t think we’ll get the same *wow* impression with initial glimpses in spring training, and instead grow more appreciation for hit tool and being on base all the time.  At least I know I didn’t get those immediate wow vibes when catching a single game in person at Aberdeen.  

[Just Regular]

1 minute ago, Say O! said:

Gunnar physical attributes at 6-3 // 200lbs will stand out in comparison to Jackson at 6-0 // 180.  So I don’t think we’ll get the same *wow* impression with initial glimpses in spring training, and instead grow more appreciation for hit tool and being on base all the time.  At least I know I didn’t get those immediate wow vibes when catching a single game in person at Aberdeen.  

I do have my popcorn ready to see if Gunnar will let Holliday participate on any given routine double play ball that can be turned 6-3 or 6-4-3 with about the same certainty.

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

I do have my popcorn ready to see if Gunnar will let Holliday participate on any given routine double play ball that can be turned 6-3 or 6-4-3 with about the same certainty.

No way.  Gunnar’s an Alpha Dog.  

[Pickles]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

No way.  Gunnar’s an Alpha Dog.  

Not when Frazier's on the field.

[wildcard]

When I last saw Holliday he was not as good a SS as Gunnar and not as good at 2nd baseman as Westburg.   Gunnar has a better arm. Westburg didn't make an error at 2B in the 35 games he played there  for the O's.  His range was good, he was faster than I was led to believe when he was in the minors and his arm was strong for 2B.  In his major/minor career Westburg has played 97 games at 2B; Holliday 25.    2B is Westburg best defensive position.

So as ST begins Gunnar and Westburg have an edge a SS and 2B.    Elias/Hyde will no doubt see that Holliday gets to play 2B a lot in ST but against who?   Minor leaguers and some majors leaguers.   If he does well does that prove he is better by opening day than Westburg or Gunnar?  Holliday has not even dominated at AAA yet.

Some say move Westburg to 3B but when asked during the caravan what he needed to work  on his answer was cleaning up his play at 3B.

Skip to 1:27 

I am anxious to see how much Holliday, Gunnar and Westburg have improved over the off season.  If the O's are going to play the best players at each position I don't think we have the answer yet who that will be.

Edited February 10 by wildcard

[Malike]

22 minutes ago, wildcard said:

When I last saw Holliday he was not as good a SS as Gunnar and not as good a 2nd baseman as Westburg.   Gunnar has a better arm and Westburg didn't make an error at 2B in the 35 games to play there  for the O's.  His range was good, he was faster than I was led to believe when he was in the minors and his arm was strong for 2B.  In his major/minor career Westburg has player 97 games at 2B; Holliday 25.    2B is Westburg best defensive position.

So as ST begins Gunnar and Westburg has an edge a SS and 2B.    Elias/Hyde will no doubt see that Holliday gets  to play  2B a lot in ST but against who?   Minor leaguers and some majors leaguers.   If he does well does that prove he is better by opening day than Westburg or Gunnar?  Holliday has not even dominated at AAA yet.

Some say move Westburg to 3B but when asked during the caravan what he needed to work  on his answer was cleaning up his play at 3B.

Skip to 1:27 

I am anxious to see how much Holliday, Gunnar and Westburg have improved over that off season.  If the O's are going to play the best players at each position I don't think we have the answer yet who that will be.

Baseball America seems to think he's okay as a defender. I'd probably trust them over our own eyes in a handful of games, but I'm no scout. I know Gunnar was graded by them with a 70 arm rating, but a 60 for Holliday is no noodle.

"Defensively, he's a true shortstop with all the skills and instincts to play the position at a plus level, with a plus arm and plus speed as well."

Pipeline seems to think he's not as bad as you do also.

A plus runner who can steal a base, Holliday has more than enough range, good enough hands and actions and plus instincts to play shortstop for a very long time. The only thing that might be in question is his arm, which he’s worked to improve since entering pro ball. There’s a chance he’ll need to slide over to second, though that’s as much because of other Orioles personnel as it is any questions about his arm strength.

Keith Law doesn't seem worried, either.

Law raves about Holliday’s “incredible feel for the game” and his stellar work on both sides of the ball, noting that his “exceptional hand-eye coordination” makes him a possible .300 hitter and 25+ homer guy at the plate, along with defense at shortstop that Law feels is even better than Gunnar Henderson’s.

Edited February 10 by Malike

[wildcard]

15 minutes ago, Malike said:

Baseball America seems to think he's okay as a defender. I'd probably trust them over our own eyes in a handful of games, but I'm no scout. I know Gunnar was graded by them with a 70 arm rating, but a 60 for Holliday is no noodle.

"Defensively, he's a true shortstop with all the skills and instincts to play the position at a plus level, with a plus arm and plus speed as well."

Pipeline seems to think he's not as bad as you do also.

A plus runner who can steal a base, Holliday has more than enough range, good enough hands and actions and plus instincts to play shortstop for a very long time. The only thing that might be in question is his arm, which he’s worked to improve since entering pro ball. There’s a chance he’ll need to slide over to second, though that’s as much because of other Orioles personnel as it is any questions about his arm strength.

Where did I say that Holliday is bad?  I didn't.   I said Gunnar has a stronger arm at SS which is important going in the hole.  And Westburg has played more games at 2B  which is his best position. Hard to know what Holliday is now at 2B because he has barely played there.

Tony ranks Holliday arm as average at SS.   Hitting 45 which is below average.   Defense 45 again below average.  Power 40 below average. Speed 55 above average.

Edited February 10 by wildcard

[RZNJ]

17 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Where did I say that Holliday is bad?  I didn't.   I said Gunnar has a stronger arm at SS which is important going in the hole.  And Westburg has played more games at 2B  which is his best position. Hard to know what Holliday is now at 2B because he has barely played there.

Tony ranks Holliday arm as average at SS.   Hitting 45 which is below average.   Defense 45 again below average.  Power 40 below average. Speed 55 above average.

Too soon to say Westburg is a better 2B than 3B.  He played more 3B in the minors.  OAA liked him more at 3B  also.

[wildcard]

7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Too soon to say Westburg is a better 2B than 3B.  He played more 3B in the minors.  OAA liked him more at 3B  also.

Listen to the interview I posted.   He thinks he needs to improve at 3B.   He didn't say that about 2B.  When I saw him at 3B last year I didn't see the reflexes that Urias has there.  However he made some great plays at 2B including a sprint to the outfield and an over the shoulder catch showing his range.   He was very consistent at 2B thus the no errors.

I accept your "too soon".   But with what I have seen and read he is better at 2B with the data I have.

Edited February 10 by wildcard

[RZNJ]

18 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Listen to the interview I posted.   He thinks he needs to improve at 3B.   He didn't say that about 2B.  When I saw him at 3B last year I didn't see the reflexes that Urias has there.  However he made some great plays at 2B including a sprint to the outfield and an over the shoulder catch showing his range.   He was very consistent at 2B thus the no errors.

I accept your "too soon".   But with what I have seen and read he is better at 2B with the data I have.

You don’t have any data.  lol

You think he feels he doesn’t need to work on anything at 2B just because he said he needs to clean up a few things at 3B?   Maybe he was told he’ll be playing a lot of 3B this year and that’s why he mentioned 3B.  He looked very good at 2B.  He looked ok at 3B.  Some actual data (OAA +3) says he was better at 3B.  Just saying.

https://www.milb.com/video/jordan-westburg-s-diving-stop

Edited February 10 by RZNJ

[wildcard]

13 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

You don’t have any data.  lol

You think he feels he doesn’t need to work on anything at 2B just because he said he needs to clean up a few things at 3B?   Maybe he was told he’ll be playing a lot of 3B this year and that’s why he mentioned 3B.  He looked very good at 2B.  He looked ok at 3B.  Some actual data (OAA +3) says he was better at 3B.  Just saying.

And I am saying that is not what a saw at 3B nor what he said about 3B.

[spleen1015]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

When I last saw Holliday he was not as good a SS as Gunnar and not as good at 2nd baseman as Westburg.   Gunnar has a better arm. Westburg didn't make an error at 2B in the 35 games he played there  for the O's.  His range was good, he was faster than I was led to believe when he was in the minors and his arm was strong for 2B.  In his major/minor career Westburg has played 97 games at 2B; Holliday 25.    2B is Westburg best defensive position.

So as ST begins Gunnar and Westburg have an edge a SS and 2B.    Elias/Hyde will no doubt see that Holliday gets to play 2B a lot in ST but against who?   Minor leaguers and some majors leaguers.   If he does well does that prove he is better by opening day than Westburg or Gunnar?  Holliday has not even dominated at AAA yet.

Some say move Westburg to 3B but when asked during the caravan what he needed to work  on his answer was cleaning up his play at 3B.

Skip to 1:27 

I am anxious to see how much Holliday, Gunnar and Westburg have improved over the off season.  If the O's are going to play the best players at each position I don't think we have the answer yet who that will be.

Elias said during that radio interview earlier in the week that if Holliday is on roster in '24, 2B is a big part of that equation. Makes sense for Westburg to say he needs to work on 3B if he's been told he's likely to play a lot of 3rd this year.

Elias is telling us what's going to happen. If Holliday plays well enough, he'll be the primary 2B this year.

[wildcard]

2 minutes ago, spleen1015 said:

Elias said during that radio interview earlier in the week that if Holliday is on roster in '24, 2B is a big part of that equation. Makes sense for Westburg to say he needs to work on 3B if he's been told he's likely to play a lot of 3rd this year.

Elias is telling us what's going to happen. If Holliday plays well enough, he'll be the primary 2B this year.

I agree with all that.  Then look at where Tony thinks Holliday was at the end of 2023.   Holliday may make a big jump forward this spring or not.   We have to see.