Jackson Holliday 2024

[Tony-OH]

On 8/12/2024 at 3:09 PM, baltfan said:

People do underestimate the value of a quick release.  Volpe also has a quick release as does Westburg and as did Brooks. I still would prefer the cannon, but guys that have a quick release probably could throw harder but find the quick release more effective.

This exactly. Holliday does not have the quick release of the players Frobby mentioned.

[wildcard]

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

This exactly. Holliday does not have the quick release of the players Frobby mentioned.

Can a quick release be learned?

[Tony-OH]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Well, there are limits, and nowadays we have some data by which to measure whether a player is within those limits.   For example, back when Mountcastle was playing SS in the minors, we constantly heard from Tony and others that he didn't have the arm to play SS.  Well, now we know that Mountcastle has a relatively weak arm even for a 1B (average throw 69.4 mph, 37th among 42 1B).   Even accepting that his throws from the left side of the diamond would have considerably higher average velocity than throws from 1B, his arm would simply be unacceptable at SS even if his other skills at the position were good.   But Holliday is in the range that can be acceptable if other skills are good.

As to Hardy, I don't think his arm was that weak.   Probably solid major league average for a SS.  Bordick, I would say, was probably a bit below average in arm strength.   Both of them knew how to compensate for not having an upper-tier arm. 

Hardy definitely had a strong arm when he needed it, he just didn't show it off all the time. His internal baseball clock was off the charts when it came to knowing exactly how much he had to put on a throw to get a runner, many times by a half step.

Mountcastle not only had a weak arm, but his arm swing made it a slow release on top of the lack of arm strength. The fact that Duquette ordered Mountcastle to play SS for so long to "increase his value" was one of his bigger blunders. Just because you play a player at a position does not mean the other team's scouts believe they can play there. 

As for Holliday, I think he could fill in at shortstop and probably not kill a team, but he would be a below average defender there in my opinion based off what I've seen from him playing there in the minors. He really doesn't bring anything plus to the infield (hands, tagging, arm strength, accuracy, quick release) and a lot of these are a work in progress.

[wildcard]

12 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Hardy definitely had a strong arm when he needed it, he just didn't show it off all the time. His internal baseball clock was off the charts when it came to knowing exactly how much he had to put on a throw to get a runner, many times by a half step.

Mountcastle not only had a weak arm, but his arm swing made it a slow release on top of the lack of arm strength. The fact that Duquette ordered Mountcastle to play SS for so long to "increase his value" was one of his bigger blunders. Just because you play a player at a position does not mean the other team's scouts believe they can play there. 

As for Holliday, I think he could fill in at shortstop and probably not kill a team, but he would be a below average defender there in my opinion based off what I've seen from him playing there in the minors. He really doesn't bring anything plus to the infield (hands, tagging, arm strength, accuracy, quick release) and a lot of these are a work in progress.

Who is the better backup SS?  Holliday or Westy? 

[Can_of_corn]

11 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Hardy definitely had a strong arm when he needed it, he just didn't show it off all the time. His internal baseball clock was off the charts when it came to knowing exactly how much he had to put on a throw to get a runner, many times by a half step.

Mountcastle not only had a weak arm, but his arm swing made it a slow release on top of the lack of arm strength. The fact that Duquette ordered Mountcastle to play SS for so long to "increase his value" was one of his bigger blunders. Just because you play a player at a position does not mean the other team's scouts believe they can play there. 

As for Holliday, I think he could fill in at shortstop and probably not kill a team, but he would be a below average defender there in my opinion based off what I've seen from him playing there in the minors. He really doesn't bring anything plus to the infield (hands, tagging, arm strength, accuracy, quick release) and a lot of these are a work in progress.

I 100% agree that it was a bad move.  Clearly an unforced error. 

But biggest blunder?

Did it actually do Mountcastle or the team any harm?

I guess his defense at first would have been steadier in 2020-2021 but those were lost seasons anyway.  I don't think Elias would have handled his service time any differently.

[Tony-OH]

17 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Can a quick release be learned?

I'll be honest, I don't know at what point a throwing motion is a throwing motion when it comes to fielders. Some of it has to do with muscle twitch as well, so not everyone is a quick twitch person.

[Tony-OH]

10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I 100% agree that it was a bad move.  Clearly an unforced error. 

But biggest blunder?

Did it actually do Mountcastle or the team any harm?

I guess his defense at first would have been steadier in 2020-2021 but those were lost seasons anyway.  I don't think Elias would have handled his service time any differently.

That may have been hyperbole for sure. Either way, I can remember talking with player development people and scouts and none of them wanted to play Mountcastle at SS, and only a few wanted to give him a shot at 3B for the same reasons.

[Tony-OH]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Who is the better backup SS?  Holliday or Westy? 

After the way Westburg looked like he had never played there in his life, in his one game this year, by default, Holliday.

Really you don't want either of them at SS for anything other than an emergency or for a few innings. This was why Mateo was so important and why Soto was eventually recalled.

[wildcard]

8 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

After the way Westburg looked like he had never played there in his life, in his one game this year, by default, Holliday.

Really you don't want either of them at SS for anything other than an emergency or for a few innings. This was why Mateo was so important and why Soto was eventually recalled.

So you think Soto is a better defensive SS than Holliday.    Not knowing enough about either one, I would put them about even.

[HowAboutThat]

3 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Hardy definitely had a strong arm when he needed it, he just didn't show it off all the time. His internal baseball clock was off the charts when it came to knowing exactly how much he had to put on a throw to get a runner, many times by a half step.

Mountcastle not only had a weak arm, but his arm swing made it a slow release on top of the lack of arm strength. The fact that Duquette ordered Mountcastle to play SS for so long to "increase his value" was one of his bigger blunders. Just because you play a player at a position does not mean the other team's scouts believe they can play there. 

As for Holliday, I think he could fill in at shortstop and probably not kill a team, but he would be a below average defender there in my opinion based off what I've seen from him playing there in the minors. He really doesn't bring anything plus to the infield (hands, tagging, arm strength, accuracy, quick release) and a lot of these are a work in progress.

Totally correct, that begs the question of how much bad defense you will be willing to accept in return for a lot of power. I don’t know if Holliday is going to develop in terms of batting average, he certainly has plenty of power, but I personally really want guys who can play excellent defense as well as hit.

Edited August 16 by HowAboutThat

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

So you think Soto is a better defensive SS than Holliday.    Not knowing enough about either one, I would put them about even.

I don't really know a lot about Soto defensively so I couldn't tell you that for sure. They may be for all I know. Soto is here because of his versatility, but he hasn't played a lot of 3B in his career.

I think the Orioles prefer to keep running Holliday out to 2B so would most likely play Soto there over him if Gunnar needs a day off. 

[SemperFi]

3 hours ago, wildcard said:

Can a quick release be learned?

It's taught in transfer drills which start at around age 8.  I can always tell an old catcher by the way he throws-quick zip from the ear.

[banks703]

5 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

He really doesn't bring anything plus to the infield (hands, tagging, arm strength, accuracy, quick release) and a lot of these are a work in progress.

Good points.. .

This is exactly what I've remarked about his defense. Even in turning the DPs that have been celebrated, he's not looked good as some have stated. On one of them, he backhanded what should have been an easier play to "circle and alligator it" (as we tell the youths). The ball that Gunnar had to grab twice in his glove (milliseconds) would have been turned with JW or Jorge at 2B on that play. Yeah, that's on Gunnar but someone with a stronger arm makes that play. Kudos to JH for sticking in there as the runner came barreling down on him though. That's encouraging. The not catching the steal attempts (or at least keeping them from going into the outfield) are a big issue for me. 

As a SS with a weaker arm, he goes out of his way to make plays on the run, which can be fixed with footwork drills sure, but lack of arm strength is what makes him to do it so he has a tendency to revert to that habit and seems to still be doing that at 2B. It's still only year 1 that he's worked primarily as a 2B and he's looked about what I expected from him, not a complete butcher at 2B but also not showing me anything to suggest that he'll be a plus defender in the infield, even at 2B.. and for all of the points that you mention above, it's why I still think that an eventual move to the outfield may be in his and the team's best interest. 

Edited August 16 by banks703

[banks703]

54 minutes ago, SemperFi said:

It's taught in transfer drills which start at around age 8.  I can always tell an old catcher by the way he throws-quick zip from the ear.

And this is what I have been posting in response to every reminder about how he's surrounded by people who bleed baseball. A lot of things that I see that he struggles with right now (yes as a 20 year old kid), whether it's as a SS or a 2B,  should have and likely were, taught correctly to him as far back as 8 years old or younger... and yet he still struggles with some basic infield fundamentals. I do think that his overall athleticism has made up for some of his other limitations but by being overly dependent on said athleticism (see: him going out of his way to make plays on the run) it's created some gnarly bad habits for him. I do think that he will continue to improve and my hope for him at 2B is that he is Jose Altuve solid there but I just don't see him being a plus defender in the infield. He's got a long throwing motion, almost more like an outfielder, which is why some of his rushed throws tend to go haywire. 

[Just Regular]

5 minutes ago, banks703 said:

an eventual move to the outfield may be in his and the team's best interest. 

Hopefully it doesn't end up that bad but we'll see him side by side same game as Jose Altuve in the year's final 4-game series next week.

All Statcast OAA years 2016-2024 guess Altuve about 35th percentile among MLB's 2B.    For sure value takes a big hit if a player has to leave the middle of the diamond.

Either Altuve or Holliday might have some key plays to make or not on well-struck pitches in competition with each other for a minute.    Postseason best on best, I happened to see Ohtani scald one through Joey Ortiz's wicket the other day.

Right now some of what I think watching him 25 games into his career is how bad Cowser looked in his cup of coffee last year.