After Two Weeks of Pie...

[Flosman]

Just to be clear, you would have cut Pie and exposed him to waivers this spring?

That is Trea's well established position.

[Burg]

Not to steal a line from Drew, but its YOUR way of thinking that will cause another drop in attendance in 2009! I'm sorry, but 2 weeks into a season a team should not "give up." Its one thing to say we are a year or two away from being perennial contenders. Its another entirely to keep guys like Freel, Pie, and Moeller on the team when Wieters, Reimold, and Montanez are ready to contribute.

The fact that you are advocating moves based on attendance in 2009 and the fact that you grouped Freel, Pie, and Moeller together is simply mind boggling to me.

We'll just agree to disagree because there is just no way that I can agree with either of the above.

[DrungoHazewood]

If he didn't win the LF job by his spring results, yes.

I want to take the best 25 players north. Pie was not one of those 25 as he didn't earn his spot.

That's an irresponsible way to run a team, picking your 25 by whomever had the best spring numbers. Every year you'd have 3-4 guys on the roster who'd never played above A ball while releasing any number of good players in the midst of 4-year contracts.

[JTrea81]

To me, Pie seems like Luis Hernandez all over again - defense wise anyway.

You have a player that's hyped for his defense, given a job outright which a majority is OK with, and then fails to prove he's a good defender there. And now you have a minority calling for him to be replaced because he fails to live up to the hype early in the season yet the majority wants to continue to give him rope to hang himself.

Sound familiar?

Now granted Pie has a ton more hype than Hernandez did offensively, but defensively I think the situation is pretty similar.

OHer's had great expectations from Pie defensively, and he just hasn't lived up to them. Yet there is still a majority that thinks he can turn it around and willing to give him more rope while a minority is ready to replace him.

[JTrea81]

That's an irresponsible way to run a team, picking your 25 by whomever had the best spring numbers. Every year you'd have 3-4 guys on the roster who'd never played above A ball while releasing any number of good players in the midst of 4-year contracts.

Obviously you give leeway to your established vets that have produced in the past as they use ST to work on things or tune up. Pie was not a vet, therefore he had to produce to win a spot.

[Dipper9]

The fact that you are advocating moves based on attendance in 2009 and the fact that you grouped Freel, Pie, and Moeller together is simply mind boggling to me.

We'll just agree to disagree because there is just no way that I can agree with either of the above.

You're missing the logic of my argument because you seem to have a "I am correct and anyone else's opinion is purely ridiculous." If that's the case, I see no more reason to debate the issue. You think he should get all year to prove himself, I disagree. We'll leave it at that.

For the record, I have NEVER advocated doing moves for attendance reasons. Nor do I advocate moves that will screw up 2010 and beyond. Bringing up Reimold, Montanez, Wieters, Bergeson, and Hill when he's ready in place of Pie, Freel, Moeller, Eaton, and Liz in no way prevent the maturization of the 2010 team. If anything, bringing these guys up sooner rather than later will help them gel with the current core of Orioles so that in 2010 we WILL be ready to compete. I understand the argument for giving Pie playing time (though you apparently only pick out my posts that don't mention this) but how anyone can advocate not doing the other four moves above and saying that they are helping 2009 to screw up 2010 is mind boggling.

[JTrea81]

Question for JTrea & Dipper. Assume the impossible, that Pie turns in a decent season and blows up into a .800+ OPS guy with power next year. Will you still feel that your position was right?

Obviously not, but I don't see that happening. Pie will be lucky to become Corey Patterson IMO. Right now that is his ceiling.

[Dipper9]

Question for JTrea & Dipper. Assume the impossible, that Pie turns in a decent season and blows up into a .800+ OPS guy with power next year. Will you still feel that your position was right?

Well since you asked me, again I will answer and say I will gladly admit I was wrong. Though I think the chances of your above stats happening are slim to none.

[Dr. FLK]

OHer's had great expectations from Pie defensively, and he just hasn't lived up to them. Yet there is still a majority that thinks he can turn it around and willing to give him more rope while a minority is ready to replace him.

He hasn't lived up to our expectations 2 weeks into the season. This team is in rebuild mode, so we have time to be patient with him. If he doesn't improve after receiving a legit chance, then we can adequately form an opinion. Right now, I think we can agree that his start has been disappointing. But, it's only been 2 weeks...

Let me ask you this...if he had torn it up for these 2 weeks -to the tune of an 825OPS, solid base running, solid defense, and a few HR - , would you be advocating for him to bat in the middle of the lineup? Or would you be saying that we need more data to formulate an opinion?

[JTrea81]

The defensive comparison has a tinge of merit. Comparing them in any other way is laughable.

That's why I only compared them defensively...

[Hank Scorpio]

Not sure what YOU don't understand, but ST performance IS important for young players trying to make the team. See Markakis, Nick and Jones, Adam for examples. A guy who has yet to prove himself in the majors just being given a job should dam well care about his ST stats or he won't be around very long.

Dip, they very publicly stated that Adam Jones was going to be the starting centerfielder well before spring training was over last year. Now, he has subsequently proven that to have been a good idea, but he didn't NEED to "earn it" last spring. It was his.

[Dipper9]

Dip, they very publicly stated that Adam Jones was going to be the starting centerfielder well before spring training was over last year. Now, he has subsequently proven that to have been a good idea, but he didn't NEED to "earn it" last spring. It was his.

And YET he still went out and proved that the job should indeed be his. He did not rest on the merits that the club would give him time to grow into the role. What has Pie done to merit playing time other than being a top prospect a few years ago for another organization? There are MANY top prospects who do not make it in baseball. I'll take a guy with great baseball instincts over a guy with all the tools but doesn't know how to use them.

[Dipper9]

One played the most important position on the field. The other plays one that is decidedly less important. Even with that, I think you and others have been grossly exaggerating his defensive problems.

Seriously? Do you even watch the games? His throws are horrid, he bobbles almost every grounder hit to him, and watching him field fly balls is like, well, I'll let me wife's words speak for me here..."He looks like a little leaguer going in cricles trying to catch it." He MAY grow into a fantastic left fielder for all I know, but saying we are exaggerating his current problems is just inaccurate.

[DrungoHazewood]

To me, Pie seems like Luis Hernandez all over again - defense wise anyway.

You have a player that's hyped for his defense, given a job outright which a majority is OK with, and then fails to prove he's a good defender there. And now you have a minority calling for him to be replaced because he fails to live up to the hype early in the season yet the majority wants to continue to give him rope to hang himself.

Sound familiar?

Now granted Pie has a ton more hype than Hernandez did offensively, but defensively I think the situation is pretty similar.

OHer's had great expectations from Pie defensively, and he just hasn't lived up to them. Yet there is still a majority that thinks he can turn it around and willing to give him more rope while a minority is ready to replace him.

Of course the difference is that Pie has been graded out as a top prospect and plus-plus defender by dozens or hundreds of scouts and different sources and analysts over a period of many years while LH was a little guy with a .580 OPS in AA that sneaked into the bottom of the occasional Atlanta prospect list because he had a glove.

They're as comparable as a moon rock and a platypus.

[Dr. FLK]

And YET he still went out and proved that the job should indeed be his. He did not rest on the merits that the club would give him time to grow into the role. What has Pie done to merit playing time other than being a top prospect a few years ago for another organization? There are MANY top prospects who do not make it in baseball. I'll take a guy with great baseball instincts over a guy with all the tools but doesn't know how to use them.

So would I. But, can we really make that judgment this early? I remember a player who had an April with a 558 OPS in his first season as a starter (and a May that wasn't much better)...and I'm sure glad we didn't jettison him with such a short leash.

Pie has shown to have the tools in the minor leagues, he just hasn't put it together yet for whatever reason. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Since we're rebuilding, we have the time to be patient with him and see how he develops with regular PT.