Anyone still want to make a compelling argument against rebuilding?

[bgtimber75]

If you don't think that we can compete with the 1st or 2nd best pitching in the AL and the 6th-8th best offense in the AL, then I know why we don't see eye-to-eye.

.

Isn't that an awful lot to ask? I mean we we're going to have Lowen and Olson, basically 2 rookies, and DC who is a crap shoot with every start.

Sure it's possible that they could have the best pitching in the league but it's not likely and to build your team on that assumption would be ill advised.

[Sports Guy]

Bottom line, whether people want to recognize it or not...For us to compete, we need the following:

-3-5 new positonal starters

-A better bench

-A true #2 starter...I think we have this guy but that player needs to develop

- A much better BP

Since we don't have the money Boston and NY do, every roster spot is important.

We need to stop pissing away money and roster spots on garbage.

[Sports Guy]

Isn't that an awful lot to ask? I mean we we're going to have Lowen and Olson, basically 2 rookies, and DC who is a crap shoot with every start.

Sure it's possible that they could have the best pitching in the league but it's not likely and to build your team on that assumption would be ill advised.

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Loupgaroo]

SG: Sorry if I've missed you saying this on an earlier post, but what players, if any, would you keep? (Not including prospects).

[Ohfan67]

I usually do.

That's worth some rep points.

[Sports Guy]

SG: Sorry if I've missed you saying this on an earlier post, but what players, if any, would you keep? (Not including prospects).

Well, no one is untouchable but i would keep most of the young pitching and Markakis.

I would look to trade Bedard ONLY if we don't/can't sign him to an extension this offseason.

[Sports Guy]

So, if I'm a FO defender and way off base, why don't you take my 16 point list and show me all the areas where we disagree?

First of all, you are always the one who jumps on me for wanting to change the whole team...So, if we agree, than why the hell do you jump on me?

Secondly, you recently said we only need to change 30% of the team..I disagree with that.

[bgtimber75]

How is this news to anyone? I love how I say this is how we need to compete and everyone assumes that I believe we'll be a top 2 pitching staff next year. Some of us really love to misrepresent other's positions to make their positions more defendable.

I don't think there is more than a 10-20% chance of us being top 2 in pitching next year. I would say there is a 50% chance we can be top 4. About 65% that we'll be top 5.

Just so we're clear. You're saying we need to be top 2 in pitching to compete. You're saying the odds of that happening are slim. So that means the chance of us competing next year are slim, like 10-20% slim?

[Fan4Life]

What do we have to do to get a pick for CPat? Offer him arbitration? And if so, Should we?

[NewMarketSean]

I honestly don't even know how to respond to this post. I've been trying, but everything I type is going to come out wrong. I think we should probably just agree to disagree and move on.

I win!

Just kidding. I honestly don't know what we're even arguing about anymore. All I know is that we both want the team to be better and we have different opinions about how to get there.

I disagree with your beliefs, you disagree with mine, but who cares.

Truce.

[Sports Guy]

I didn't say we agreed. I don't know your stance. You have two posts in this very thread that appear to contradict each other to me so perhaps I'm confused. My list didn't advocate changing the whole team. Are you unwilling to take my list and go through it to show where we disagree like clapdiddy did?

Yes, give me a second and i will respond.

[Sports Guy]

1) I think we should trade Tejada

Agree

2) Try to convince Mora to let us trade him

Agree

3) Put Huff at 3rd if Mora leaves

This would be an option but not my first one.

4) Shop Bedard and Roberts, but don't trade them for less than a great return

Agree

5) Look to upgrade 1B/DH and back up catcher

Agree but we have that upgrade, at least for catcher IMO.

6) Pick up Millar's option

Don't think we need worry about picking it up...Probably will kick in automatically.

7) Insert Reimold in LF

Agree

8) Sign whichever one of the CF free agents doesn't look ridiculously overpriced

Disagree

9) Find another good bullpen arm or two somewhere

I thinkw e have them.

10) Hold onto our young pitchers like they are gold

I would trade Dcab in the right deal...Not trade him just to trade him.

11) Use the starters that don't make the rotation next spring in the pen

Agree

12) Let Traschel, Wright, and Benson go bye bye

Agree

13) Adjust based on what the market and trades bring

Need more on this one.

14) Use Knott and House as bench players next year

Agree

15) Determine if House can perform adequately as the back up catcher between now and the end of the year

Agree

16) Determine how capable Knott is in the outfield between now and the end of the year

Agree

[Sports Guy]

OK, I think we're on basically the same page.

I really thought the 2006-2007 offseason was a placeholder because our minor league players just weren't ready. I wasn't happy we committed so many years to Baez, but other than that I wasn't that concerned with anything we did and I didn't think we missed out on any FAs that we should have signed.

I think this offseason is very important because Tejada needs to go and we need to address CF/SS for the long term. I am going to wait on 1B in hopes that Tex gets here next offseason. I am willing to let Millar/Huff fill in for the next year. I hope Reimold solves the LF situation. I'm up in the air on whether we have enough depth to fill our bullpen suitably. I'm also up in the air re: DH, but I'm leaning toward Knott/House/and a lefty that isn't immediately obvious filling the spot.

Thanks, BTW

The problem with Bradford and Walker were that we could have gotten similar production for less years and less money.

Baez and Payton were horrible contracts and they represent something a lot more than just 2 bad contracts(hopefully this is something AM can correct).

[Frobby]

No, I'm saying that I think that is our best chance at competing over the next three years.

With only one good FA signing in CF to replace Patterson (say Rowand), re-sign Millar, promote Reimold, use House as back up catcher as our only moves this offseason.

I would put the chances of us winning the division next year at less than 5%.

I would put the chances of us winning the wild card next year at less than 20%.

I would put the chances of us competing for the wild card and having a shot in mid-September at about 45%.

If we sign another good offensive player, good reliever, and get good value for Tejada, I think our chances are significantly better. I think our chances get significantly better in 2009 regardless of what else happens since our young guys should be nearing maturity. We should have pretty darn good pitching in 2009 unless things go horribly awry.

The Orioles' option on Millar becomes a vested option after 475 PA's. He's sitting on 436 right now, so that option is going to vest.

I think your odds are very optimistic. The team has underperformed, but at best it is a .500 as currently constructed. The additions you mentioned wouldn't get it to 90 wins absent having just about everything go right.

[doctorbj]

Well, at the risk of taking this thread elsewhere, but trying not to start another one, let me make two points.

1. We are VERY fortunate that Wieters wanted to play so badly that he ignored what I am sure was Boras' advice and signed. We screwed it up and are very lucky tocome out of it with a prospect. OTOH nobody would be on this board if it had not happened.

2. I don't see it discussed but is no one surprised/disappointed/upset at Mazzone's inability to do anything with any of the many pitchers that have been up down and released. Surely something should have been able to be done with some of them. I've seen nothing that indicates he's done anything to justify his salary or his reputation.

Thoughts?

Barry