Givens to be decided within the next 48 hours

[hoosiers]

Yeah, I just find it to be a bad move. If you want to sign some overslots later . . . get yourself a slot or below slot guy at the 2nd round position. Signing someone like Kipnis or Hale or Paulsen would have been the way to go about it. Instead, you waste a year of developmental time in a system that is not exceptionally deep in talent.

I think these criticisms above and other posts are a bit much.

Jordan thought he had the parameters of what it would take to sign the kid and either the kid changed his mind or the parameters were wrong. Jordan took a high upside kid rated higher than his draft position entering the spring season and believed a signing would get done based on information on hand. Jordan's track record with accurate pre-draft signing info is pretty strong.

The penalty here is deferring acquiring a second round talent for a year. It's a do-over - so stop with the "black mark"/"should have picked an easier sign"/"the system's not deep".

Worst case is we get a second round talent having lost a year's interest - not the stuff of "black marks", IMO.

[allstar1579]

I think these criticisms above and other posts are a bit much.

Jordan thought he had the parameters of what it would take to sign the kid and either the kid changed his mind or the parameters were wrong. Jordan took a high upside kid rated higher than his draft position entering the spring season and believed a signing would get done based on information on hand. Jordan's track record with accurate pre-draft signing info is pretty strong.

The penalty here is deferring acquiring a second round talent for a year. It's a do-over - so stop with the "black mark"/"should have picked an easier sign"/"the system's not deep".

Worst case is we get a second round talent having lost a year's interest - not the stuff of "black marks", IMO.

Maybe you should re-read the stuff he said. He said exactly what you just said.

You are taking the "black mark" comment a little too harshly I think, he is just saying that combining the fact that the Orioles did not talk to Givens much pre draft with the fact that Givens thought he was worth much more than teams did makes it quite a gamble pick. Nothing wrong with that assumption, it was well documented fact. He also said he thinks Jordan was pretty sure he could sign him if he took him in the 2nd, but he personally wouldn't have.

[crawdad]

I think these criticisms above and other posts are a bit much.

Jordan thought he had the parameters of what it would take to sign the kid and either the kid changed his mind or the parameters were wrong. Jordan took a high upside kid rated higher than his draft position entering the spring season and believed a signing would get done based on information on hand. Jordan's track record with accurate pre-draft signing info is pretty strong.

The penalty here is deferring acquiring a second round talent for a year. It's a do-over - so stop with the "black mark"/"should have picked an easier sign"/"the system's not deep".

Worst case is we get a second round talent having lost a year's interest - not the stuff of "black marks", IMO.

He has shown a good ability in the past to figure out what players will sign for. In this case, he failed. He has done a lot of good things. Still, in this one pick . . . he made a mistake. It being a high round selection . . . makes it a bigger mistake. Losing a year of development is certainly an issue.

Now, maybe you are not reading all of my posts on this thread or maybe some words have more sting to you than others, but I have gone out of my way to say I think Jordan is a good scouting director.

My opinions as such do not preclude me from noticing when someone does not perform well. In this one case, Jordan made a poor decision and it is a black mark or whatever term you want to use.

He is still a good scouting director.

So my statements that cause you ire?

Black mark . . . it is.

Easier sign . . . that was not my point. My point was that if he wanted to sign later picks to overslot deals and money was an issue . . . he should have picked an easier sign. My choice for the pick was Glaesmann who would also command a good bit of change. So, I think you misread that.

Thin system . . . we are significantly thinner in terms of talent in our system this year than we were last year because we graduated quite a few players. You need waves of talent coming up through the system on a near steady basis and punting high round picks is not how one does this. Money is not infinite and cost considerations will be more important next year than this because we will probably have about the same budget, but with two second rounders to sign. These things just do not happen in a vacuum. There were good talents available that could be used in our system and we passed on them based on a potential misevaluation of Givens.

[allstar1579]

He has shown a good ability in the past to figure out what players will sign for. In this case, he failed. He has done a lot of good things. Still, in this one pick . . . he made a mistake. It being a high round selection . . . makes it a bigger mistake. Losing a year of development is certainly an issue.

Now, maybe you are not reading all of my posts on this thread or maybe some words have more sting to you than others, but I have gone out of my way to say I think Jordan is a good scouting director.

My opinions as such do not preclude me from noticing when someone does not perform well. In this one case, Jordan made a poor decision and it is a black mark or whatever term you want to use.

He is still a good scouting director.

So my statements that cause you ire?

Black mark . . . it is.

Easier sign . . . that was not my point. My point was that if he wanted to sign later picks to overslot deals and money was an issue . . . he should have picked an easier sign. My choice for the pick was Glaesmann who would also command a good bit of change. So, I think you misread that.

Thin system . . . we are significantly thinner in terms of talent in our system this year than we were last year because we graduated quite a few players. You need waves of talent coming up through the system on a near steady basis and punting high round picks is not how one does this. Money is not infinite and cost considerations will be more important next year than this because we will probably have about the same budget, but with two second rounders to sign. These things just do not happen in a vacuum. There were good talents available that could be used in our system and we passed on them based on a potential misevaluation of Givens.

Just to expand on that a bit, it's not even that Jordan didn't do a good job of finding out what Givens wanted, but it seemed pretty clear that Givens wasn't going to sign without being paid like a top 10 pick, no matter what he may have said, you have to worry somewhere that he's going to keep asking for more and more money since he's got the leverage of a college scholarship on the table.

[TheBandit]

You need waves of talent coming up through the system on a near steady basis and punting high round picks is not how one does this. Money is not infinite and cost considerations will be more important next year than this because we will probably have about the same budget, but with two second rounders to sign. These things just do not happen in a vacuum. There were good talents available that could be used in our system and we passed on them based on a potential misevaluation of Givens.

For the record, even though our 3 best prospects were graduated, it doesn't mean we're all of a sudden thin. There's still plenty of good arms in Erbe, Britton, and Arrieta in the system along with developing arms like Drake, Moreland, and Spoone with high school deveoplment arms like Bundy, Beal and Hobgood. There's 3 waves right there in the pitching department with varyious ceilings. Offensively, most of the talent seems to be lower in the system aside from Bell and Snyder.

We have been ranked one of the better systems in the bigs this past year (and I have seen us ranked first before), and I don't think we'll drop too far when they redo the rankings next year. Your ranking is not based just on your top few prospects.

[alexei606]

For the record, even though our 3 best prospects were graduated, it doesn't mean we're all of a sudden thin. There's still plenty of good arms in Erbe, Britton, and Arrieta in the system along with developing arms like Drake, Moreland, and Spoone with high school deveoplment arms like Bundy, Beal and Hobgood. There's 3 waves right there in the pitching department with varyious ceilings. Offensively, most of the talent seems to be lower in the system aside from Bell and Snyder.

We have been ranked one of the better systems in the bigs this past year (and I have seen us ranked first before), and I don't think we'll drop too far when they redo the rankings next year. Your ranking is not based just on your top few prospects.

Also, Givens said he was shocked the Orioles drafted him because there was not much dialogue between them beforehand. I think that's a quote from the sun, and I'll post the link when I find it.

Actually, BA's ranking for the Orioles was based on its top four and stated as such. Wieters, Matusz, Tillman and Arrieta garnered BA's #9 ranking. The others weren't quite as brass, but, most also mentioned those same guys as the big reasons for the Orioles' high rankings. That said, there are still good prospects, but, I won't be surprised at all that the Orioles fall, especially if Matusz and Tilman officially graduate.

[crawdad]

For the record, even though our 3 best prospects were graduated, it doesn't mean we're all of a sudden thin. There's still plenty of good arms in Erbe, Britton, and Arrieta in the system along with developing arms like Drake, Moreland, and Spoone with high school deveoplment arms like Bundy, Beal and Hobgood. There's 3 waves right there in the pitching department with varyious ceilings. Offensively, most of the talent seems to be lower in the system aside from Bell and Snyder.

We have been ranked one of the better systems in the bigs this past year (and I have seen us ranked first before), and I don't think we'll drop too far when they redo the rankings next year. Your ranking is not based just on your top few prospects.

Also, Givens said he was shocked the Orioles drafted him because there was not much dialogue between them beforehand. I think that's a quote from the sun, and I'll post the link when I find it.

Yeah, I agree with the statements on Givens.

We are thinner. We were at the bottom of the top ten and we will probably be a mid-level farm system this year. Much of our ranking was based on having Matusz and Wieters at the top. It made a broad system be a top tier system. Assuming Matusz no longer qualifies we have a couple B+ talents, a couple Bs, and several B-. We will have depth, but we will be thin on top tier talent. That was my point. Being in the situation that we are in where we seem somewhat reluctant to sign top tier risky talent like the big boys in the AL East . . . making solid and sound decisions on the amateur front is a necessity. Wasting a 2nd rounder is not a good thing.

That said, Jordan is an above average scouting director.

[allstar1579]

Yeah, I agree with the statements on Givens.

We are thinner. We were at the bottom of the top ten and we will probably be a mid-level farm system this year. Much of our ranking was based on having Matusz and Wieters at the top. It made a broad system be a top tier system. Assuming Matusz no longer qualifies we have a couple B+ talents, a couple Bs, and several B-. We will have depth, but we will be thin on top tier talent. That was my point. Being in the situation that we are in where we seem somewhat reluctant to sign top tier risky talent like the big boys in the AL East . . . making solid and sound decisions on the amateur front is a necessity. Wasting a 2nd rounder is not a good thing.

That said, Jordan is an above average scouting director.

If that 2nd rounder turned into Castellanos I bet you wouldn't complain (and no I don't think he makes it that far), just sayin is all.

[crawdad]

If that 2nd rounder turned into Castellanos I bet you wouldn't complain (and no I don't think he makes it that far), just sayin is all.

Well, I don't like Givens as the pick, either. The thing is if Jordan wants the guy bad enough to select him in the second round . . . you get your guy. To find out after the draft that he is not the guy you thought you were selecting and you just punted a 2nd rounder and a year of development . . . I think that is worthy of some criticism.

Again, for Hoosiers' sake, I like Joe. I think he is an above average scouting director. He is swell. He just made a mistake here.

But, for Hoosiers' sake, he is a good scouting director

[allstar1579]

Just curious here. Seems like some people are defending Jordan by saying that he had no way of knowing that Givens would want what he wants. Others are saying that it was clear that Givens wanted 1st round money or even top 10 money. The question is this. How do you guys know that Givens wanted 1st round money or top ten money? And if you guys actually knew this, then why didn't Jordan.

In the end, my view is that perhaps Jordan messed up if he should have known that Givens wanted much more than 2nd round slot. However, if the contingency is using that money on lower over slot picks and getting the pick back for next year, then it's not biggie.

He gave every impression that he wanted BIG money to sign, whatever he said to Jordan behind closed doors is one thing, but that doesn't mean he's going to stick to it. Think of it like this, the most negotiating power he has is AFTER getting drafted high but before signing. He's costing himself money by not telling people enough to still want to draft him, this is just how the game is played and how you end up with these guys going to the wire every year. As it stands now the players have too much power it's an unfair negotiating balance, which is why you will see a rookie cap in the next CBA.

[crawdad]

Just curious here. Seems like some people are defending Jordan by saying that he had no way of knowing that Givens would want what he wants. Others are saying that it was clear that Givens wanted 1st round money or even top 10 money. The question is this. How do you guys know that Givens wanted 1st round money or top ten money? And if you guys actually knew this, then why didn't Jordan.

In the end, my view is that perhaps Jordan messed up if he should have known that Givens wanted much more than 2nd round slot. However, if the contingency is using that money on lower over slot picks and getting the pick back for next year, then it's not biggie.

It was widely reported in trade journals that he was a hard sign.

I do not know what Jordan knew. All I know is that it is becoming more apparent we sloppily punted a second round pick.

[QBsILLEST1]

Gotta agree with this line of thinking. In fact, I think I'd be happier with 2 of those guys than with just Givens. I was never crazy about the pick because of the questionable bat and the age factor (19 yo HS player).

In all honesty, Id be happier taking Coffey than Givens alone, throwing in Bush or Ohlman on top would just be icing on the cake for me. The fact that Givens stagnated in his senior year in HS doesnt sound to good for his future as a pro ball player. But then again, with much better coaching he could take off, maybe we will see with out own eyes, or maybe instead we will see Coffey blow up with our own eyes. We shall know soon enough.....

[QBsILLEST1]

Every indication I have heard says Matusz will still hold onto his prospect status into the offseason. He is very close to being shut down, atleast last I had heard....

[hoosiers]

In the end, my view is that perhaps Jordan messed up if he should have known that Givens wanted much more than 2nd round slot. However, if the contingency is using that money on lower over slot picks and getting the pick back for next year, then it's not biggie.

I do not expect the issue is that JJ is only offering Givens second round slot $ - unless Givens said he would sign for slot if taken in the first two rounds. I expect JJ is offering what was initially communicated as Givens' request - likely higher than slot, and that Givens, as JJ has said, has increased his signing bonus demands since the draft.

I can tell you from my few, brief conversations with JJ and from seeing quotes from JJ in the papers that JJ has little tolerance for folks that do this and would have at least half a mind to stop negotiating right there. Given the stakes here, a second round pick, it appears JJ is making an effort to get this done in spite of the alleged double talk.

My guess is that JJ has provided some analysis for Givens and his agent with the following:

- the amount originally communicated for what JJ would sign

- the recommended slot for various ratings Givens had among major publications

- and perhaps the recommended slot for where the Orioles rated Givens

IMO, those would be the relevant data points for a fair offer from JJ.

[Hank Scorpio]

No more offer for Givens.

http://masnsports.com/2009/08/os-withdraw-contract-offer-to.html

Too much work to do to sit around waiting!!!!!!