Givens to be decided within the next 48 hours

[Gurgi]

We are in bad shape if we need to not sign Givens to sign some later round talents. What are we talking about, couple 100K?

Some of this is posturing. Lot of this talk is posturing.

If Sano said he would sign with us we would find the 3-4 million.

After all next year we have 30 million dollars or so coming off the books. (Gibbons, Baez, Huff, Mora)

[hoosiers]

A few things:

1) JJ was not mis-led regarding the signing bonus and knew the demands on draft day.

2) JJ drafted a player he really liked in Givens knowing those demands and the fact that this could be a tough sign

3) JJ takes full responsibility for how this went down

Now, one thing to me that is disappointing is that JJ had drafted some guys he "really liked" but did not intend to sign due to budgetary reasons. The Os have a budget and we live in the real world and we can't expect our FO to come up with $ for every player JJ really likes, but as long as JJ is asking for $ in $250k clips for additional guys, I'd like to see our FO step up and sign these kids regardless of whether we are signing our second round pick or not.

[allstar1579]

Not if you have a set budget and he is looking for first round money.

Givens is done and gone, supplemental pick it is. No sleep lost here.

[Sports Guy]

I hate to say it, but Jordan blew this one big time. I realize we'll get an additional 2nd round pick next year, but we've now wasted a year and our 2nd round pick. Our system is barren of positional player talent and we can't "afford" mistakes like this one. To say we'll now sign two of our later round picks is a cop out. I'm really disappointed with the way this was handled. We now know Givens made it be known what he wanted on draft day. We should have avoided him and went on to the next kid on the draft board.

100% agree Mark...This was a terrible job by JJ.

Its irrelevant if he gets the other kids signed or if we get Sano signed.

He blew this one in a major way. He stated, right after the draft on MASN, that he wanted to get an athletic MIer with that pick.

He had several targets and some were gone...He should have gone another way if he wasn't willing to give Givens the money he wanted.

Now, I think Givens is making a mistake himself but whatever, that's on him.

[allstar1579]

If he was a first round pick he would of been in the first round.

He will probably be a two sport guy in college. Risking major injuries in football. Well good luck to him and good luck to us next year in the draft.

He thought he was better than he really was. The funny thing is he will end up hurting himself in the end, because by the time he is eligible again, there will be a rookie cap in place and he will get less than he could have.

[dcterp]

From an article updating the Givens situation posted at 10:03 PM....

A couple of days after signing fourth-round pick Randy Henry, a right-handed pitcher, the Orioles agreed to terms with 22nd-round pick Cameron Coffey, a left-handed pitcher out of Houston Christian High School in Texas. He'll take a physical Thursday.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-osnotes0812,0,5313094.story

[Duke2010]

Excellent news about Coffey, and I'm very surprised that he has signed. In fact, I was hoping that he would help turn the tide for Duke against Carolina, so it's a bittersweet moment for me. But when it comes down to it, I hope we can continue to bring these guys in.

It'll be interesting to see what his dollar amount is, and how this affects the negotiations between Ohlman and Bush.

[tywright]

The Coffey signing is huge...He's a 1st round talent

[hoosiers]

100% agree Mark...This was a terrible job by JJ.

Its irrelevant if he gets the other kids signed or if we get Sano signed.

He blew this one in a major way. He stated, right after the draft on MASN, that he wanted to get an athletic MIer with that pick.

He had several targets and some were gone...He should have gone another way if he wasn't willing to give Givens the money he wanted.

Now, I think Givens is making a mistake himself but whatever, that's on him.

Many business/baseball decisions are about taking risks - risks are risks because they do not always work out and they require getting on the ledge. People who take calculated risks should be supported not berated. JJ took a risk and it did not work out. He took responsibility. He has a back up plan for this year and we get a "do over" next year. Relax Francis.

BTW, Jordan was also quoted post-draft as saying when they took Givens they thought they would not have a chance with Townsend by the time the third round pick came around.

[jerios55]

Well there is talk we are so excited to go after Coffee now...That implies we couldn't/wouldn't sign both Givens and Coffee.

That is ridiculous if true.

I was wondering about this as well. If Coffey plus others were signable then they should be signed regardless of Givens decision. I realize JJ probably gets a specific budget, but if a 23 rounder can be had for ~300K (just a guess) and is considered a 2nd rounder it seems like a no brainer.

Either way I am excited to have Coffey, not too upset about Givens (glad to get the comp pick). I do hope we go after a few hitters early next year and that Sano is still a possibility.

edit: after reading through things it seems this was clearly a bad guess.

[crawdad]

Many business/baseball decisions are about taking risks - risks are risks because they do not always work out and they require getting on the ledge. People who take calculated risks should be supported not berated. JJ took a risk and it did not work out. He took responsibility. He has a back up plan for this year and we get a "do over" next year. Relax Francis.

BTW, Jordan was also quoted post-draft as saying when they took Givens they thought they would not have a chance with Townsend by the time the third round pick came around.

So the Jays should be supportive of Riccardi because he made a calculated risk on signing Wells to his crazy contract? I don't really understand that perspective.

I think we should be supportive of Jordan because he is a good scouting director. Acknowledging that he messed up this pick is not being disrespectful.

Also, it is not a do over. He lost the ability to sign very good talent here. Now, we lose a year of developmental time and potentially are hindered if the draft budget is not increased next year to account for the extra pick.

None of this is in a vacuum. That includes his poor decision here and that includes the ramifications of having to delay the pick.

[Mackus]

I hate to say it, but Jordan blew this one big time. I realize we'll get an additional 2nd round pick next year, but we've now wasted a year and our 2nd round pick. Our system is barren of positional player talent and we can't "afford" mistakes like this one. To say we'll now sign two of our later round picks is a cop out. I'm really disappointed with the way this was handled. We now know Givens made it be known what he wanted on draft day. We should have avoided him and went on to the next kid on the draft board.

You're right here, but you're taking it a bit too far. You're completely ignoring the negotiation aspect of Givens' demands.

The O's had been in on him for a long time, and he had been telling them a number. That was a number they were fine with. Then on the day of the draft that number shoots up to high 1st round money. That screams "negotiation ploy". Jordan still liked the kid obviously, and was still willing to pay him what he had been asking for the entire time up until that day.

Running away with your tail between your legs from a pick anytime they try some negotiation tactics to get more money is much more costly long term than missing out on one guy who happened to not be bluffing. Jordan called Givens bluff, and he happened to be holding a good hand. Would you honestly not draft any kid who had been telling you a number you can live with for months and then literally on draft day tells you it will take a ton more as you say in your post? You're just being asked to be tricked out of getting good talent if that is the case.

Its very disappointing to not get him signed, and Jordan ultimately is at fault by making a bad read that Givens' last-minute draft day demands were a negotiation ploy rather than a legit number, but much of the criticism here is going overboard. He made a mistake, and has admitted as much, but it wasn't a mistake of laziness, or stupidity, bad scouting, or cheapness. He made a bad read on a kid's last minute changes to his contract demands. If that's the biggest mistake Jordan makes in a draft, I can live with that. Nobody is perfect.

[crawdad]

You're right here, but you're taking it a bit too far. You're completely ignoring the negotiation aspect of Givens' demands.

The O's had been in on him for a long time, and he had been telling them a number. That was a number they were fine with. Then on the day of the draft that number shoots up to high 1st round money. That screams "negotiation ploy". Jordan still liked the kid obviously, and was still willing to pay him what he had been asking for the entire time up until that day.

Running away with your tail between your legs from a pick anytime they try some negotiation tactics to get more money is much more costly long term than missing out on one guy who happened to not be bluffing. Jordan called Givens bluff, and he happened to be holding a good hand. Would you honestly not draft any kid who had been telling you a number you can live with for months and then literally on draft day tells you it will take a ton more as you say in your post? You're just being asked to be tricked out of getting good talent if that is the case.

Its very disappointing to not get him signed, and Jordan ultimately is at fault by making a bad read that Givens' last-minute draft day demands were a negotiation ploy rather than a legit number, but much of the criticism here is going overboard. He made a mistake, and has admitted as much, but it wasn't a mistake of laziness, or stupidity, bad scouting, or cheapness. He made a bad read on a kid's last minute changes to his contract demands. If that's the biggest mistake Jordan makes in a draft, I can live with that. Nobody is perfect.

I think that is a solid conclusion.

[RandyM]

So the Jays should be supportive of Riccardi because he made a calculated risk on signing Wells to his crazy contract? I don't really understand that perspective.

I think we should be supportive of Jordan because he is a good scouting director. Acknowledging that he messed up this pick is not being disrespectful.

Also, it is not a do over. He lost the ability to sign very good talent here. Now, we lose a year of developmental time and potentially are hindered if the draft budget is not increased next year to account for the extra pick.

None of this is in a vacuum. That includes his poor decision here and that includes the ramifications of having to delay the pick.

That is a good question. Looks like we are spending the money that would have gone to Givens on other picks this year. Technically we are not saving money by not signing him, just reallocating.

What happens next year with two 2nd rounders. I find it tough to see any budget increasing for the O's. Does that mean instead of having late round "hard" sign guys signed like we have done the last 2 to 3 years. That money will be "assigned" to one of our 2nd rounders? So the entire draft budget will not increase just for this fact?

Kind of what the Nats did with two 1st rounders this year? They took a signable guy with the pick gained by losing Crowe. They did spend over 1 mill on a high school OF after not signing Crow last year. Kind of like we are doing with Givens money and signing Coffey. Of course the picking of Strasburg had something with that also.

Again, find it hard to see any budget increasing from this year especially if we are not saving money on the draft this year. I know if I were looking at a budget and I saw a portion of it increase, I would say "why".

[crawdad]

That is a good question. Looks like we are spending the money that would have gone to Givens on other picks this year. Technically we are not saving money by not signing him, just reallocating.

What happens next year with two 2nd rounders. I find it tough to see any budget increasing for the O's. Does that mean instead of having late round "hard" sign guys signed like we have done the last 2 to 3 years. That money will be "assigned" to one of our 2nd rounders? So the entire draft budget will not increase just for this fact?

Kind of what the Nats did with two 1st rounders this year? They took a signable guy with the pick gained by losing Crowe. They did spend over 1 mill on a high school OF after not signing Crow last year. Kind of like we are doing with Givens money and signing Coffey. Of course the picking of Strasburg had something with that also.

Again, find it hard to see any budget increasing from this year especially if we are not saving money on the draft this year. I know if I were looking at a budget and I saw a portion of it increase, I would say "why".

I think a major failing in our strategy is putting money down for marginal veterans that could be turned into 3-4 extra prospects a year. Young talent is worth a ton and other clubs are doing it. We are behind the ball on this one.

On the current market you can spend 10MM on a single average player.

Overslot 10MM a year and you likely wind up with two or three each year.

Eventually, you are going to see a salary cap on amateur talent as the clubs figure this out and the big boys just buy every one.