Windsor outpitched Loewen

[NewMarketSean]

Positive rep dictates whether your post was logical? OK

I didn't call you stupid. Go back and reread what I wrote. I wouldn't do that.

Peace, bell bottoms, have a good night

Maybe I should have said "I never get negative rep points saying I'm stupid."

Oh well. Sweet dreams.

[NewMarketSean]

You know what... I'm also getting sick of the age thing... at some point you either have it or not. I know Loewen is 22, but how many of the greats have come out and pitched well from the outset -- even at younger ages?

I know that's why they are the greats and all... and who knows what Loewen will be.. but it would be nice to see one of our "talented young arms" come out and not look back.

I know I could be opening a can of worms here, but we could be saying Loewen is only 26, 27... and still be waiting for him to find "it."

Lord knows we did it with Matt Riley -- and Lord knows people are saying it in relation to Kyle Boller. I know people tend to get better with age and experience, but using a players age as an out is starting to bug me in certain areas.

Not with Loewen, though. Please don't flame me for that.

[Fan in Japan]

Did Windsor really outpitch Loewen? If he did, I don't think it's totally obvious. If you look at their game scores, Windor's was 49 while Loewen's was 56.

If you break down Loewen's game, outside of the 4th inning, he didn't pitch THAT badly. His line for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, & 5th innings: 4 IP 1 H 0 R 2 BB 3 K 2 HB

Of course, you have to consider the game as a whole, but I was somewhat satisfied with his performance and will refrain from making any overall assessments until I see more of him this time around.

[NewMarketSean]

Did Windsor really outpitch Loewen? If he did, I don't think it's totally obvious. If you look at their game scores, Windor's was 49 while Loewen's was 56.

If you break down Loewen's game, outside of the 4th inning, he didn't pitch THAT badly. His line for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, & 5th innings: 4 IP 1 H 0 R 2 BB 3 K 2 HB

Of course, you have to consider the game as a whole, but I was somewhat satisfied with his performance and will refrain from making any overall assessments until I see more of him this time around.

Fair and balanced. Do you work for Fox News?

[Mad Mark]

Saw less than half an inning of tonights game (top 2?) and Palmer was commenting on Loewen's mechanics being good at that point.

Is it possible that a combination of his pitches moving too much, and the umpires not really knowing him, are contributing to the walk totals? Obviously, the umps had nothing to do with the HBP, but they're vital on the walks.

[SilentJames]

Fair and balanced. Do you work for Fox News?

Obviously not because it WAS fair and balanced

[Mackus]

Saw less than half an inning of tonights game (top 2?) and Palmer was commenting on Loewen's mechanics being good at that point.

Is it possible that a combination of his pitches moving too much, and the umpires not really knowing him, are contributing to the walk totals? Obviously, the umps had nothing to do with the HBP, but they're vital on the walks.

Loewen just lost his command completely in the 4th.

But the entire game it just seemed as if it was there for one batter and gone the next. Most of his walks were 4 or 5 pitch walks, and the HBP were obviously just pitches that got completely away from him.

When he's dialed in, he's incredibly encouraging, but when he loses it, he can't get the ball anywhere near the plate. It is frustrating, but I think he's getting better. His last two starts he's given up only 2 runs each and gone 5 innings. The walks obviously need to come down, but his stretch in Ottawa is encouraging.

[BaltimoreTerp]

You know what... I'm also getting sick of the age thing... at some point you either have it or not. I know Loewen is 22, but how many of the greats have come out and pitched well from the outset -- even at younger ages?

I know that's why they are the greats and all... and who knows what Loewen will be.. but it would be nice to see one of our "talented young arms" come out and not look back.

I know I could be opening a can of worms here, but we could be saying Loewen is only 26, 27... and still be waiting for him to find "it."

Lord knows we did it with Matt Riley -- and Lord knows people are saying it in relation to Kyle Boller. I know people tend to get better with age and experience, but using a players age as an out is starting to bug me in certain areas.

Not with Loewen, though. Please don't flame me for that.

First full seasons for...

...Greg Maddox: 21 years old, 5.61 ERA

...Randy Johnson: 25 y/o, 4.82 ERA

...Roger Clemens: 21 y/o, 4.32 ERA

...Tom Glavine: 22 y/o, 4.56 ERA

...Mark Mulder: 22 y/o, 5.44 ERA

...Bartolo Colon: 24 y/o, 5.65 ERA

...Jason Schmidt: 23 y/o, 5.70 ERA

Now, I just went down BaseballReference.com's top active ERA list, and checked. Of the twenty-five of the top thirty who were starters, these seven had particularly mediocre/bad years early, but are still considered among the best around today.

Most on the list WERE good right out of the gate, but nowhere near all, which is very important to remember, especially since it could be argued we are back at square one with Adam, and he'll be up for the rest of the season with plenty of time to improve.

[olehippi]

A couple of points to be considered:

(1) Did anyone else hear Palmer mention that the baseballs in the minors are different than in the ML? That they have larger seams and are easier to grip, especially for the curve ball? And that on a hot humid night, Loewen might be having problems gripping the ball?

(2) It really doesn't matter that Loewen pitch brilliantly every game the rest of the year...only that he shows improvement and gains experience. He is pitching to be ready for next year. The same can be said for Penn when he finally comes back up.

(3) NMS: if you were a pitcher in HS and college...and I was, by the way... you of all people should understand that you're not going to have your best stuff for every game...that sometimes you just lose control and when that happens, you try to correct it by overcompensating in some way...throwing harder or softer, trying to aim the ball, etc., which only makes it worse. That's what happened to Loewen in the 4th inning. Take away that inning, and he did pitch brilliantly.

[DoobyDoo]

I don't think either pitcher pitched all that well. Windsor clearly had much better control and consistency. He certainly didn't have overwhelming stuff although his change up seemed pretty good.

Loewen had better stuff. When he was on he was great but when he wasn't he was awful. This start was pretty much the same as all of his other starts. He was good at times but inconsistent.

So far, he always seems to have one inning where he loses it completely. Other times he loses it for an at bat or two an inning and throws pitches that aren't even close to being strikes.

He's certainly shown that he has the stuff to be a successful major league pitcher. He certainly doesn't have the command/control yet obviously. It certainly seems like it has to do with the mechanics of his delivery. There's no other reason for him to sail along then out of nowhere throw nothing even close to the plate.

Anyways, I would probably say that Windsor was a little better overall because he wasn't as inconsistent and two of the runs he allowed were unearned. It doesn’t really matter much to me because neither pitcher impressed overall.

[Cokeman]

I brought this up in NMS's other thread, and someone correct me if I'm wrong...but, I don't think Loewen has pitched since July 9th, which may account for quite a bit of his wildness or lack of command tonight.

[TinCup]

But Adam didn't have trouble throwing strikes in AAA. He clearly has a problem doing it here.

Come on NMS, even you have to realize that for many, perhaps most, there is a big, nay HUGE difference between the minors (even AAA) and the BIG stage. That is why only a few hundred players stick in the big leagues out of the thousands that aspire to it. The talent is there but he has to learn to control his nerves, etc. Give the kid some time on this stage.

[mikezpen]

He got by against a weak-hitting team tonight. On the other hand, he escaped in the 4th when Daniel Cabrera might have imploded and thern pitched a decent 5th. And gave up only 1 hit and 2 runs. Mixed results

I think he belongs in Baltimore now because they have nothing to lose by pitching him.But he has a long way to go, control-wise.

[JourneyFan]

First full seasons for...

...Greg Maddox: 21 years old, 5.61 ERA

...Randy Johnson: 25 y/o, 4.82 ERA

...Roger Clemens: 21 y/o, 4.32 ERA

...Tom Glavine: 22 y/o, 4.56 ERA

...Mark Mulder: 22 y/o, 5.44 ERA

...Bartolo Colon: 24 y/o, 5.65 ERA

...Jason Schmidt: 23 y/o, 5.70 ERA

Now, I just went down BaseballReference.com's top active ERA list, and checked. Of the twenty-five of the top thirty who were starters, these seven had particularly mediocre/bad years early, but are still considered among the best around today.

Most on the list WERE good right out of the gate, but nowhere near all, which is very important to remember, especially since it could be argued we are back at square one with Adam, and he'll be up for the rest of the season with plenty of time to improve.

And how many times, since those pitchers made their debuts, have the Orioles had a pitcher nearly as successful as them? When was the last time we had someone who could easily rival Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson? I applaud your efforts, but the Orioles' track record the last decade or so does not indicate that any of our pitchers will go on to be successes like that, at least not when they're with us.

[J.D.]

And how many times, since those pitchers made their debuts, have the Orioles had a pitcher nearly as successful as them? When was the last time we had someone who could easily rival Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson? I applaud your efforts, but the Orioles' track record the last decade or so does not indicate that any of our pitchers will go on to be successes like that, at least not when they're with us.

How many times before Maddux had the Cubs developed a pitcher on Maddux's level?

What about the Mariners/Expos with Randy Johnson?

What about the Red Sox with Clemens?

The Braves with Glavine/Smoltz?

The Indians with Colon?

The point is, good pitchers with the track records of those guys are incredibly difficult to come by. The Orioles had Mike Mussina, in case you've forgotten. Some organizations are lucky enough to find gems like these guys once every five to ten years or so. Some organizations go 20 years between developing pitchers like that. When was the last time the Tigers had a guy like Verlander, or the Twins before Santana, or the Giants, or the Rangers, or the Mets, or the Reds, or the Royals, or the Rockies, or the Pirates, or the Dodgers...?

It's tough to develop pitchers that are consistent aces. That's why they're such a hot commodity. That's why teams cling to pitching prospects like they're water during a drought. Just because a team goes a while between developing an ace-caliber pitcher, let along a future Hall of Famer, doesn't mean that the entire organization is a failure, or that the scouting department is pathetic, or that the team is doomed to failure. The Giants have actually been pretty successful over the last 15 years, and most of the players that have played significant roles in that didn't come through their system. The Rangers made the playoffs a couple of times without developing their own star pitcher. Same with the Dodgers. The Mets made the 2000 World Series without an ace pitcher that they developed, and the rotation that they have now that's keeping them in first place is devoid of a star pitcher that came up through their system.

You HAVE to be patient when it comes to developing young talent, and that's double true for young pitching. You have to learn not to take repeated failed attempts at grooming a pitcher with a good arm into being a great pitcher, or even a guy that helps the team. Sometimes you give up too soon and that pitcher takes off elsewhere. Sometimes you hold on for too long, and that player doesn't develop. But it's still better to exercise the patience than to allow yourself to get down everytime a highly touted prospect doesn't develop. The MLB draft is such an inexact science... just look at the list of #1 overall picks from 1990 to 2006. Littered with busts and guys that have never and will never break into the bigs.

I always liken young pitchers to developing quarterbacks. Sometimes a quarterback with insane physical tools can't grasp the speed of the NFL game, and they have problems with mechanics or reading defenses or what have you, and they bust out. Sometimes they lack that certain "it" that makes a successful NFL quarterback. It's the same with pitching to me, and it's why I worry a little more each day with Cabrera. The arm's there, but he just lacks that "it" to me. Loewen looks like he has that "it," and the arm to match. But honestly, who knows? The best thing is that we know that he's young, we know that he has a solid arm, and we know thus far, especially after the last outing, that he can get himself out of jams and not get rattled by baserunners. That's a positive sign.

But regardless, you have to be patient when it comes to evaluating a pitcher's future. Ask the New York Mets about Scott Kazmir.