What's wrong with our system?

[hoosiers]

The problem is, they seem to be hiring the same person over and over again. The same ideas and principles...The name on the door is different but that's about it.

What do you know about Mike Bordick (replaced Vinas), Ryan Driscoll (replaced Hogarty) and Alan Dunn (replaced Schmidt) to be able to make this statement?

[JayThomas]

Saying that people aren't good at their jobs is not a real response. That is not the specific response to the problem I am searching for.

I use a ton of data to drive my job. I look at the key areas where my kids struggle and attack those areas to help them.

Same principle here - saying the system sucks is basically someone saying my kids are dumb and writing it off. No, they are struggling in key areas, attack those areas.

What should the Orioles do, specifically, to better transition our talent to the ML?

Well, in the case of Townsend and Mummey - those guys can't seem to stay on the field long enough to develop, and their issues seem to be conditioning-related. So, again, how about Brady Anderson for Strength and Conditioning Coordinator?

[Sports Guy]

Saying that people aren't good at their jobs is not a real response. That is not the specific response to the problem I am searching for.

I use a ton of data to drive my job. I look at the key areas where my kids struggle and attack those areas to help them.

Same principle here - saying the system sucks is basically someone saying my kids are dumb and writing it off. No, they are struggling in key areas, attack those areas.

What should the Orioles do, specifically, to better transition our talent to the ML?

Everything...But you don't want to hear that either. You are arguing that like Rshack here and that is not a compliment.

How about this:

1) Condition them better.

2) Coach them better

3) Do a better job of teaching mechanics.

4) Stress fastball command more

The list can keep going.

They do everything TERRIBLE.

EVERYTHING has to be totally re-vamped.

[Sports Guy]

What do you know about Mike Bordick (replaced Vinas), Ryan Driscoll (replaced Hogarty) and Alan Dunn (replaced Schmidt) to be able to make this statement?

Follow thread...I am not neccassarily talking the brand new guys. I am talking about this in general terms. Go back and look at Frobby's list. We have had a revolving door of the different names and same principles..That should be obvious to anyone.

Now, maybe the newer guys are improvements and that would be great. But until it shows up here, it is nothing more than speculation.

[SilentJames]

Everything...But you don't want to hear that either. You are arguing that like Rshack here and that is not a compliment.

How about this:

1) Condition them better.

2) Coach them better

3) Do a better job of teaching mechanics.

4) Stress fastball command more

The list can keep going.

They do everything TERRIBLE.

EVERYTHING has to be totally re-vamped.

See three and four are reasonable answers to that question. Just saying everything is superficial.

Saying they need to condition better - well how should they go about doing that. When my kids struggle with exams I can't just say STUDY BETTER! You have to work on specific things.

So saying they need to stress fastball command more, that is a real thing that can be addressed. I would go further and say they need to focus on developing pitchers with more extreme groundball tendencies. Considering the park and our power-happy division.

AS far as coaching goes, are you saying that Allenson needs to go? Griffin needs to go? Kendall? I thought that all of these guys were fairly well respected. Who should they be replaced with?

[Sports Guy]

See three and four are reasonable answers to that question. Just saying everything is superficial.

No, saying everything is a short hand way of saying what the issues are. Nothing positive is happening. When someone says everything, you should be able to figure out what that means.

Saying they need to condition better - well how should they go about doing that. When my kids struggle with exams I can't just say STUDY BETTER! You have to work on specific things.

Seriously?

AS far as coaching goes, are you saying that Allenson needs to go? Griffin needs to go? Kendall? I thought that all of these guys were fairly well respected. Who should they be replaced with?

I could care less about Allenson and Kendall. Results stink so if they go, they go.

As for Griffin...Tough call IMO. I used to be a big supporter of his and I still am but we see the same issues with these guys after working with him, so maybe he really isn't that good.

Who should they be replaced with?

We should be going into the real organizations, teams like Tampa, Minn and Atlanta(to name a few) and trying to get their people...Offer a lot more money, etc...

But none of it will really matter until PA is gone and everything drastically changes.

People just don't understand this for whatever reason.

[MikeAD]

See three and four are reasonable answers to that question. Just saying everything is superficial.

Saying they need to condition better - well how should they go about doing that. When my kids struggle with exams I can't just say STUDY BETTER! You have to work on specific things.

So saying they need to stress fastball command more, that is a real thing that can be addressed. I would go further and say they need to focus on developing pitchers with more extreme groundball tendencies. Considering the park and our power-happy division.

AS far as coaching goes, are you saying that Allenson needs to go? Griffin needs to go? Kendall? I thought that all of these guys were fairly well respected. Who should they be replaced with?

I really don't feel like saying "everything is wrong" is superficial or missing the point. The harder thing to do here is to find areas where we can fix it. The organization needs a major overhaul. Its almost like there the Orioles haven't changed the way they run things in a very long time. We don't condition players well, we don't get them the developmental help they need, we don't have a strong system-wide training system.

As far as conditioning, when it comes to pitching (especially) a true conditioning program is essential. Every pitcher should be doing similar things year round to ensure the best performance and development. If a player needs more or less individually, then there should be a plan for that as well. When it comes to pitch selection and command of those pitching, we seem to always get it wrong. We either get a pitcher who has to rely on two few pitches and gets figured out, or we get a guy who has a 3-4 mediocre pitches, none of which can be go-to. That is what the minors are for, to give pitchers the confidence and skills they need to compete at the major league level. Most won't make it but we've struck out too many times.I'm still shocked that we messed up a talented player like Hayden Penn so badly, but we've produced very few talented, skilled players at the MLB level, despite having guys in the minors that are projected to be good players.

[Frobby]

I really don't feel like saying "everything is wrong" is superficial or missing the point. The harder thing to do here is to find areas where we can fix it.

Now this, I can agree with. Also, we don't know what changes are being made right now. For example, this guy Driscoll came in as strength and conditioning coordinator this year -- what is his background, what is he doing differently, and does what he is doing make sense? I have no idea. That is one example, and there are countless others.

The Leo Mazzone quote was quite damning, but we also have to recognize that he is talking about what he observed in 2006-07. I am not saying that things are better organized today than they were then, but there shouldn't necessarily be an assumption that everything is unchanged, either, considering that Mazzone's tenure largely precedes MacPhail's (with the exception of a couple of months), that the farm director was different, etc.

[SteveA]

I don't *think* (someone tell me if I am wrong) that the Orioles have a specific conditioning program they recommend to players in the offseason, or even if they tailor their recommendations to the individual player's needs/body type/etc. I believe (once again someone please prove me wrong) that the season ends and the Orioles say "stay in shape", we'll see you in February.

So you have some really motivated players who work out with Brady Anderson, and others who eat their way through an offseason (Huff), or some who chop some wood and sit in a deer blind, or some who throw 100% filming a commercial without having thrown off a mound in 5 months, or some who do whatever their high school or college coach told them, or some who need to put some muscle on their frame but don't and the next thing you know they've lost 5 MPH off their fastball.

And you have a ridiculously high rate of pitcher injuries. Yes, I know it happens all the time. I can't help but laugh when someone earlier in this thread actually talked about Bedard as a "success" for our development system. The guy can't cross the street without getting hurt. Maybe that's just his nature, but when you see so many guys in our system have their promise derailed by injuries (Loewen, Bedard, Spoone, Erbe, Riley, and so on)... you have to wonder.

The Orioles should have someone in charge of conditioning for the system who can proscribe specific offseason (and inseason) regimens for players to work out, based on sound established principles, perhaps modified because we all don't have the same body type and different players have different needs. And EVERY SINGLE PLAYER in the organization should end their season with a meeting with this person to tell them what is expected of them in the offseason, and they should be contacted in the offseason to check up on them as well. If a player needs to lose weight or add muscle, goals for the offseason should be set.

OK, if they already do this, then I retract my entire post. But if I was a gambling man (oh wait, I am), I would bet you a good sum of money that we don't do this. I have a feeling it's a lot closer to: "Have a good offseason and we'll see you in February. Hey, maybe you should consider working out with Brady if you get the chance" or "Hey, don't come into camp 10 pounds overweight like you did last year" with no specific advice on how to achieve that goal.

[Frobby]

I don't *think* (someone tell me if I am wrong) that the Orioles have a specific conditioning program they recommend to players in the offseason, or even if they tailor their recommendations to the individual player's needs/body type/etc. I believe (once again someone please prove me wrong) that the season ends and the Orioles say "stay in shape", we'll see you in February.

So you have some really motivated players who work out with Brady Anderson, and others who eat their way through an offseason (Huff), or some who chop some wood and sit in a deer blind, or some who throw 100% filming a commercial without having thrown off a mound in 5 months, or some who do whatever their high school or college coach told them, or some who need to put some muscle on their frame but don't and the next thing you know they've lost 5 MPH off their fastball.

And you have a ridiculously high rate of pitcher injuries. Yes, I know it happens all the time. I can't help but laugh when someone earlier in this thread actually talked about Bedard as a "success" for our development system. The guy can't cross the street without getting hurt. Maybe that's just his nature, but when you see so many guys in our system have their promise derailed by injuries (Loewen, Bedard, Spoone, Erbe, Riley, and so on)... you have to wonder.

The Orioles should have someone in charge of conditioning for the system who can proscribe specific offseason (and inseason) regimens for players to work out, based on sound established principles, perhaps modified because we all don't have the same body type and different players have different needs. And EVERY SINGLE PLAYER in the organization should end their season with a meeting with this person to tell them what is expected of them in the offseason, and they should be contacted in the offseason to check up on them as well. If a player needs to lose weight or add muscle, goals for the offseason should be set.

OK, if they already do this, then I retract my entire post. But if I was a gambling man (oh wait, I am), I would bet you a good sum of money that we don't do this. I have a feeling it's a lot closer to: "Have a good offseason and we'll see you in February. Hey, maybe you should consider working out with Brady if you get the chance" or "Hey, don't come into camp 10 pounds overweight like you did last year" with no specific advice on how to achieve that goal.

I think the truth is probably somewhere in between. Matusz is an example of a guy who spent 13 weeks at API last winter, had a dietary regimen, consults with the team's stregth and conditioning coordinator -- and still got hurt and lost velocity. http://www.masnsports.com/school_of_roch/2010/10/matusz-and-tillman-ready-to-work.html