What's wrong with our system?

[Pickles]

Ok, I can see how this is the case.

But you mean to tell me that AM can't step in and say, let's try something different? That PA is fine with poor conditioning, etc..??

Hey man, this all starts at the top and you know it as well as anybody else here.

How long did it take to get Stockstill out as Farm Director? Half a decade and several regimes- and then he's not even fired, he's merely reassigned to go screw up the international side now.

The whole organization is full of incompetent cronies from the very top down to the very bottom, and guess what, Buck and AM didn't put them there, and neither did Flanagan or Duquette. This franchise is pretty well doomed as long as PA is in charge of it. It's really simple.

[jabba72]

These same rumors were coming up back in 2001 during the Thrift era, and probably before that. Angelos has his guys down in the development side of things. Im not sure, but i have heard Angelos uses people to follow up and report on others throughout the minor leagues and scouting. Why guys like Flanagan and MacPhail cannot work around the incompetence... I dont know, it makes everyone look pretty bad.

[Camden_yardbird]

MacPhail was supposed to be doing this. I know Angelos has his favorites in the organization, but MacPhail has let too much crap slide through the cracks under his watch.

Well, one of the things that has been effective for the Pirates has been accountability. Whereas here McPhail is GM and President, in Pittsburgh Coonelly is President and Huntigton is GM. This would be akin to AM actually hiring some wunderkind to be GM with some new ideas. Coonelly has been really remarkable in his role. He was in charge at MLB of trying to keep teams to slot prices in the draft. Yet when he took the Pirates job the best thing for the team was to pay overslot, and he adapted to that.

[BaysoxFan39]

I have ranted about the Orioles scouting and player development for years. It reminds me of a "good ole boy" system. No one gets fired. No changes are made. They continue to struggle to develop our prospects through the system.

[Moose Milligan]

The Orioles could screw up pizza.

[UMDTerrapins]

Yea, i don't think people really understand how bad things are.

I wonder if Buck knows and if this is the kind of thing he would fix.

[Sports Guy]

Hey man, this all starts at the top and you know it as well as anybody else here.

How long did it take to get Stockstill out as Farm Director? Half a decade and several regimes- and then he's not even fired, he's merely reassigned to go screw up the international side now.

The whole organization is full of incompetent cronies from the very top down to the very bottom, and guess what, Buck and AM didn't put them there, and neither did Flanagan or Duquette. This franchise is pretty well doomed as long as PA is in charge of it. It's really simple.

I agree with this 100%.

But still, if conditioning isn't being done properly, I have to think AM could at least step in and say something about that.

OTOH, nothing would surprise me when it comes to the worst owner in sports.

[SteveA]

I know he's an O's HOFer and I hate to do it, but I have to throw this name out there: Scott McGregor. He's been in the system for 6-7 years now at various levels. Anyone have any thoughts on what he is bringing to the system?

I know as a player his career ended fairly early and he later admitted he hadn't worked as hard on his conditioning because his religious activites took the #1 priority. He was the first million dollar pitcher in Oriole history and that always rubbed me the wrong way -- when you are getting that kind of unprecedented money, you owe it to the team to stay in shape.

I was quite surprised in the last decade when he came back to the organization.

None of this stuff in this thread is new. Even at the major league level we clearly don't have offseason conditioning plans for our players.... some work out with Brady, some get fat (Huff), some hunt deer. No one monitored Bergeson when he filmed that commercial. We sign guys like Gonzalez and Atkins without scouting them only to find out in spring training that one of them is damaged goods and the other one has lost his bat speed.

Tony's first major article about the organization, back around 2004, talked about how pitchers got completely different instruction at one minor league level than at another, with little consistency. It doesn't seem that has changed. Mike Bordick was hired a year or two ago to try to provide some sort of organizational continuity... and we have barely heard his name since. At the time he was hired I said MacPhail should have done that within a year of taking over, not waiting as long as he did. And has Bordick been given any real authority? Is there a written "book" about how we instruct players, especially pitchers, in conditioning? Do we even have any consistent organizational philosophies like the Twins and Rangers and other organizations do?

Our pitching prospects suffer major injuries at an alarming rate, and flame out. Or get to the majors without having developed a good changeup or knowing how to change speeds. Many haven't been taught to field their position.

Yes, MacPhail should have fixed these things. Any imposition of a consistent organizational philosophy is going to have to come from the top. To me, the fact that he has done so little in this area is by far his biggest failing, moreso than ignoring international talent, more than stupid signings like Atkins and Guerrero, and more than [insert whatever trade you think he should have made].

[Pickles]

I agree with this 100%.

But still, if conditioning isn't being done properly, I have to think AM could at least step in and say something about that.

OTOH, nothing would surprise me when it comes to the worst owner in sports.

It's hard to discipline/enforce something when the subordinate is untouchable and can just go running to the owner whenever he wants.

I was always curious as to why AM didn't make more wholesale changes in the developmental program when he took over. I think over the years the answer has become more obvious: He can't. He doesn't have authority over a guy like Stockstill; he was here before AM and he'll be here after.

[RVAbird]

It's hard to discipline/enforce something when the subordinate is untouchable and can just go running to the owner whenever he wants.

I was always curious as to why AM didn't make more wholesale changes in the developmental program when he took over. I think over the years the answer has become more obvious: He can't. He doesn't have authority over guys like the Stockstills; he was here before AM and he'll be here after.

Fixed that for you.

[fishbowlguy]

i wont defend AM, but what i would like to hear from some, is some comparisons of 2000 to 2006 and 2007 until now. I mean looking at first rounders in those comparative years, it just seems to me that the FO was absolutely horrible before AM got here. By no means am I saying that AM is some kind of saviour, but people have to understand how bad things were before he got here. Recently we have drafted Wieters, Matusz, Hobgood, Machado and Bundy - before that - Beau Hale, Chris Smith, Adam Loewen, Kakes, Wayne Townsend, Brandon Snyder and Billy Rowell. Markakis was the only pick that has "made" it. Add in Arrieta 2007 5th round pick, and you can see that our drafting has improved exponentially since AM has arrived. Add in the Adam Jones pick up and at least you can say the whatever core players this team has have been aquired recently. And yes, i along with everyone else hated the hobgood pick and it pisses me off about the direction or lack of direction the international scouting has taken, but if I were to place blame for the O's issues, it would be on those running this organization before AM....

[Skeletor]

i wont defend AM, but what i would like to hear from some, is some comparisons of 2000 to 2006 and 2007 until now. I mean looking at first rounders in those comparative years, it just seems to me that the FO was absolutely horrible before AM got here. By no means am I saying that AM is some kind of saviour, but people have to understand how bad things were before he got here. Recently we have drafted Wieters, Matusz, Hobgood, Machado and Bundy - before that - Beau Hale, Chris Smith, Adam Loewen, Kakes, Wayne Townsend, Brandon Snyder and Billy Rowell. Markakis was the only pick that has "made" it. Add in Arrieta 2007 5th round pick, and you can see that our drafting has improved exponentially since AM has arrived. Add in the Adam Jones pick up and at least you can say the whatever core players this team has have been aquired recently. And yes, i along with everyone else hated the hobgood pick and it pisses me off about the direction or lack of direction the international scouting has taken, but if I were to place blame for the O's issues, it would be on those running this organization before AM....

I don't think it can be overstated how bad this organization was before AM got here.

That said, 4 years is a long time. Progress should have been made. We are still hearing the kind of stuff that's being mentioned in this thread. If that's due to meddling from Angelos, I'm not sure why MacPhail is still with the team. He's a big enough name where he could walk away.

[Skeletor]

I mean, these are the kinds of things that are changes before you get good. When a team turns a corner and goes from perennial cellar dweller to contender, people look at things that were done a few years prior to get the organization moving in the right direction. Things like clear cut organizational philosophies, team defined conditioning programs and nutritional programs, emphasis placed on skills and character traits that reflect the ideals of the club. It feels like this team hasn't even started.

[jabba72]

Whatever the problem is ...it seems widespread. I dont know if the Stockstills have that much influence. At least I hope not.

[24fps]

I don't think it can be overstated how bad this organization was before AM got here.

That said, 4 years is a long time. Progress should have been made. We are still hearing the kind of stuff that's being mentioned in this thread. If that's due to meddling from Angelos, I'm not sure why MacPhail is still with the team. He's a big enough name where he could walk away.

Not anymore.