What's wrong with our system?

[El Gordo]

“If I had to do it all over again, I would have never done it,” said Leo Mazzone, mostly a national television analyst on baseball these days, reflecting from his home in Roswell. He inherited a bunch of soft pitchers in Baltimore who couldn’t adjust to his hard but effective style. He was booted after two seasons.

To hear Mazzone tell it, his firing was a relief. “Once I got there and saw how they operated compared to the Braves, I knew I made a mistake the first week of spring training,” he said, before chuckling and adding, “I said to myself, ‘You know what? I done messed up.’

“The lack of organization. The lack of discipline. The lack of overall professionalism. I was shocked, and I couldn’t believe it.”

Gotcha... I spent much of my adult life in Rochester and watched a great thing (the affiliation with Baltimore) destroyed by an idiot owner at the major league level. Where once a player came up playing a specific style of baseball, it became questionable as to whether or not the players had any organizational direction at all in just a short time.

The first season with Minnesota as the parent club gave us Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, and a host of others who showed a remarkable ability to play the game... something that hadn't been seen with Oriole farmhands for a long time. I'd have to go back and look at the roster for Rochester that year, but it was loaded. I don't think that any player from the previous year, Baltimore's last as parent club, could have made the Red Wings.

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The O's under Angelos became notorious for a dysfunctional development system. One infamous incident came when Erik Bedard, their top prospect at the time, was playing at Bowie. In one game, Bedard reached his mandatory pitch count, but manager Dave Cash sent him back out to start the next inning. On the second or third pitch, Bedard blew out his elbow. Cash and the pitching coach were fired a day or two later.

I see a lot of games at Frederick and Bowie, and until the last couple years the Pirates' farm teams consistently embarrassed the Orioles'. The O's have made some progress recently, though. The Pirates never had the kind of dismal reputation the O's have had over the Angelos years, although I suspect things may have started falling apart the last couple years under DL. NH's decision to fire Brian Graham clearly surprised a lot of people, so I'm guessing NH found some things he didn't like.

The same O's that lost their AAA farm team because of bad baseball. Teams that refused to play at the O's minor leaugue Spring Training complex. The team that took twenty years to finally get a ST home.

Stan Charles said that when MacPhail was hired that Angelos told him he had to keep certain people in their jobs. I think Stockstill and a few others are still around.

http://onlybucs.net/forums/index.php?action=printpage;topic=3175.0

This post should be made a sticky. Any wanna be GM's should read this before they apply for the job.:mwahaha:

[Frobby]

We undoubteldy need to clean house in our minor league hierarchy, but it is not as if there are tons of people who have been in the same job year after year. Just so we are all on the same sheet of music here:

Fall 2002 - Doc Rodgers becomes farm director

Fall 2004 - Dave Stockstill becomes farm director

Spring 2005 - Julio Vinas becomes minor league hitting coordinator

Spring 2006 - John Stockstill becomed director of pro scouting

Spring 2008 - John Stockstill becomes director of international scouting

Spring 2008 - Joe Hogarty is named minor league strength and conditioning coordinator

Spring 2008 - Brian Graham becomes director of minor league instruction

Spring 2008 - Dave Schmidt becomes minor league pitching coordinator (also served 2002-04)

Spring 2010 - John Stockstill becomes farm director; switches places with Dave, who becomes director of international scouting

Spring 2010 - Mike Bordick becomes minor league offensive coordinator

Spring 2011 - Ryan Driscoll becomes minor league strength and conditioning coordinator

Spring 2011 - Alan Dunn is named minor league pitching coordinator but resigns shortly thereafter to become head coach at LSU

I've just hit the highlights here. But note that, over the last two years, the O's have changed farm directors, and replaced the offensive coordinator, the pitching coordinator (though that position may need to be re-filled), and the strength and conditioning coordinator. There have been moves made in the coaching ranks, too -- Hebner gone, Komminsk moved from Bowie manager to Norfolk hitting coach, Moe Hill moved to Aberdeen, Kendall moved from Aberdeen to Bowie, and other moves. The O's also added hitting coaches for the individual teams, whereas they used to have some roving instructors. I have no idea who is good at their jobs and who isn't; my only point is that it isn't as if there has been no turnover within the organization.

[Sports Guy]

We undoubteldy need to clean house in our minor league hierarchy, but it is not as if there are tons of people who have been in the same job year after year. Just so we are all on the same sheet of music here:

Fall 2002 - Doc Rodgers becomes farm director

Fall 2004 - Dave Stockstill becomes farm director

Spring 2005 - Julio Vinas becomes minor league hitting coordinator

Spring 2006 - John Stockstill becomed director of pro scouting

Spring 2008 - John Stockstill becomes director of international scouting

Spring 2008 - Joe Hogarty is named minor league strength and conditioning coordinator

Spring 2008 - Brian Graham becomes director of minor league instruction

Spring 2008 - Dave Schmidt becomes minor league pitching coordinator (also served 2002-04)

Spring 2010 - John Stockstill becomes farm director; switches places with Dave, who becomes director of international scouting

Spring 2010 - Mike Bordick becomes minor league offensive coordinator

Spring 2011 - Ryan Driscoll becomes minor league strength and conditioning coordinator

Spring 2011 - Alan Dunn is named minor league pitching coordinator but resigns shortly thereafter to become head coach at LSU

I've just hit the highlights here. But note that, over the last two years, the O's have changed farm directors, and replaced the offensive coordinator, the pitching coordinator (though that position may need to be re-filled), and the strength and conditioning coordinator. There have been moves made in the coaching ranks, too -- Hebner gone, Komminsk moved from Bowie manager to Norfolk hitting coach, Moe Hill moved to Aberdeen, Kendall moved from Aberdeen to Bowie, and other moves. The O's also added hitting coaches for the individual teams, whereas they used to have some roving instructors. I have no idea who is good at their jobs and who isn't; my only point is that it isn't as if there has been no turnover within the organization.

The problem is, they seem to be hiring the same person over and over again. The same ideas and principles...The name on the door is different but that's about it.

[Frobby]

The problem is, they seem to be hiring the same person over and over again. The same ideas and principles...The name on the door is different but that's about it.

Honestly, though, what do we really know about these guys, and what operational changes have been made? I find it pretty hard to know what/who should be criticized and what/who should not. There are some things that seem pretty encouraging -- for example, the strong record of our Dominican team this year (31-17), the strong record of our GCL team (18-13) and the fact that there are a lot of Latin players contributing to the GCL team's success. At the same time, the cupboard seems very bare at the upper levels of the minors, and the players there don't seem to be developing as well as they should. It's just difficult for an outsider to know who is a solid professional instructor/administrator, and who isn't.

[Sports Guy]

Honestly, though, what do we really know about these guys, and what operational changes have been made? I find it pretty hard to know what/who should be criticized and what/who should not. There are some things that seem pretty encouraging -- for example, the strong record of our Dominican team this year (31-17), the strong record of our GCL team (18-13) and the fact that there are a lot of Latin players contributing to the GCL team's success. At the same time, the cupboard seems very bare at the upper levels of the minors, and the players there don't seem to be developing as well as they should. It's just difficult for an outsider to know who is a solid professional instructor/administrator, and who isn't.

Results...and they suck.

[Frobby]

Results...and they suck.

That's superficial, and you know it. There may be some guys who have only been in their job for 1-2 years who are doing a great job, but we wouldn't know it.

[Sports Guy]

That's superficial, and you know it. There may be some guys who have only been in their job for 1-2 years who are doing a great job, but we wouldn't know it.

Superficial? It is superficial to judge people on results?

Ummm, ok.

[Frobby]

Superficial? It is superficial to judge people on results?

Ummm, ok.

It is superficial to say, the team has a bad record and hasn't produced many prospects, so that means everybody in the whole organization sucks regardless of whether they got here yesterday or 10 years ago and regardless of what specifically they are doing. That is all I am saying.

[SilentJames]

It is superficial to say, the team has a bad record and hasn't produced many prospects, so that means everybody in the whole organization sucks regardless of whether they got here yesterday or 10 years ago and regardless of what specifically they are doing. That is all I am saying.

Bingo. This is what I have been saying for awhile.

It is cheap to say that everything sucks and run away. No one here has any real idea what the specific breakdown in the system is.

Although, with all the changes you have outlined I think my theory of constant flux within the organization is looking more and more viable.

[Sports Guy]

It is superficial to say, the team has a bad record and hasn't produced many prospects, so that means everybody in the whole organization sucks regardless of whether they got here yesterday or 10 years ago and regardless of what specifically they are doing. That is all I am saying.

I didn't say if they got here yesterday that they aren't good at their jobs. I made a general statement because you said we don't really know about these guys...Maybe the brand new guys we don't but you also gave a list of many people...Many of those guys we know haven't or didn't do the job and we know that because of the results. I don't see how you can argue against that fact.

[Sports Guy]

Bingo. This is what I have been saying for awhile.

It is cheap to say that everything sucks and run away. No one here has any real idea what the specific breakdown in the system is.

Although, with all the changes you have outlined I think my theory of constant flux within the organization is looking more and more viable.

Your theory is right...Your application of it is wrong.

Thye bottom line is these people haven't been good at their jobs...Whether its because they suck or because of PA, who knows...either way, they haven't been doing their jobs at a level high enough that is worthy of them keeping their jobs.

Constant change isn't good but as I told you, if the person that is employed isn't any good, then he should lose his job.

[NewMarketSean]

It is superficial to say, the team has a bad record and hasn't produced many prospects, so that means everybody in the whole organization sucks regardless of whether they got here yesterday or 10 years ago and regardless of what specifically they are doing. That is all I am saying.

Since our talented MiL prospects came up through the system in the last 6-7 years, the Keys won the Carolina League twice and Bowie has made it to the playoffs a couple of times. Yet that success translated to the majors how? We thought that these guys playing together and winning together would help, the way it did back when the Oriole Way was alive and well. But so far, it hasn't.

OK, so our DR league and GCL league is winning. Great. But it doesn't mean jack as far as transitioning to the majors.

[SilentJames]

Since our talented MiL prospects came up through the system in the last 6-7 years, the Keys won the Carolina League twice and Bowie has made it to the playoffs a couple of times. Yet that success translated to the majors how? We thought that these guys playing together and winning together would help, the way it did back when the Oriole Way was alive and well. But so far, it hasn't.

OK, so our DR league and GCL league is winning. Great. But it doesn't mean jack as far as transitioning to the majors.

Thats just it, our minor league teams have been successful but they struggle when they get to the majors. SO WHAT IS GOING ON THERE? The last step, the last piece, the last teacher - what is going on there?

To say our entire system is awful is cheap and superficial. There is something that is missing - so what is it?

[Sports Guy]

Thats just it, our minor league teams have been successful but they struggle when they get to the majors. SO WHAT IS GOING ON THERE? The last step, the last piece, the last teacher - what is going on there?

To say our entire system is awful is cheap and superficial. There is something that is missing - so what is it?

People keep answering this for you...Why do you keep ignoring it?

[SilentJames]

People keep answering this for you...Why do you keep ignoring it?

Saying that people aren't good at their jobs is not a real response. That is not the specific response to the problem I am searching for.

I use a ton of data to drive my job. I look at the key areas where my kids struggle and attack those areas to help them.

Same principle here - saying the system sucks is basically someone saying my kids are dumb and writing it off. No, they are struggling in key areas, attack those areas.

What should the Orioles do, specifically, to better transition our talent to the ML?