KLaw : Hearing that Joe Jordan will step down as Scouting Director

[Dr. FLK]

Buck Showalter.

I think Angelos is giving him the keys. He's said he wants to make sure things are being done at the minor league level to prepare for the majors - like monitoring times to home plate.

I think Buck will get to pick his GM with Angelos' approval of course and he and that GM will sit down and rebuild the front office.

He's giving him the keys...to a car with no engine.

[allstar1579]

Buck Showalter.

I think Angelos is giving him the keys. He's said he wants to make sure things are being done at the minor league level to prepare for the majors - like monitoring times to home plate.

I think Buck will get to pick his GM with Angelos' approval of course and he and that GM will sit down and rebuild the front office.

I don't understand what Buck has done that has you so convinced he's the savior of this team. I understand your sticker shock from his run last year coming in, but he's been as mediocre as anyone else this year, so why is he so wonderful and the man to lead this team? Especially in a talent evaluation role which is probably his most glaring weakness.

[mcneck]

This might be somewhat debatable, but to me Joe Jordan did a lot of treading water. What I mean by that is, he didn't really hurt or help the system all that much. As recently stated by ESPN, the Orioles have the 5th best farm system in the division. That's got to be at least partially attributable to him. That being said, if he had stayed, I wouldn't have been up in arms either. There are undoubtedly a few players that are in the lower tiers that we haven't seen fully developed.

That is more because of McPhail not being willing to play the compensation game IMO.

[SteveA]

Given the state of our team, of our organization, and the results we keep getting on the field and in player development, I can't say taht change just for the sake of change isn't a good thing.

Obviously given the history, we could hire bad people and things could continue to suck. It can't get any worse than this, that's for sure. If this year isn't rock bottom, I don't know what is.

At this point, the way I see it, the more change the better. EVEN if the new GM is severely hamstrung in what he/she is allowed to do by ownership, at least they would be bringing in people who they agree with philosophically to the scouting director position. To me, that can't be a bad thing, at worst it's neutral and doesn't matter.

[Flosman]

Given the state of our team, of our organization, and the results we keep getting on the field and in player development, I can't say taht change just for the sake of change isn't a good thing.

Obviously given the history, we could hire bad people and things could continue to suck. It can't get any worse than this, that's for sure. If this year isn't rock bottom, I don't know what is.

At this point, the way I see it, the more change the better. EVEN if the new GM is severely hamstrung in what he/she is allowed to do by ownership, at least they would be bringing in people who they agree with philosophically to the scouting director position. To me, that can't be a bad thing, at worst it's neutral and doesn't matter.

No it can actually get worse. We have lost two people that have respect in the industry there is no telling who Mr Burns will hire. Think Sid Thrift.

[SteveA]

No it can actually get worse. We have lost two people that have respect in the industry there is no telling who Mr Burns will hire. Think Sid Thrift.

We have the second worst record in baseball and very little talent in the high minors. We have some highly touted talent in the low minors but our recent track record indicates that we are mostly incapable of turning even "highly touted talent" into major league stars. Attendance at OPACY is at an all time low, and in proportion to the population of our metropolitan area, is at an all time franchise low. We have legitimate competition from a team with potential to become a contender in the market to the south of us for the first time in history. We are in a division with two teams that have spending power out of proportion to all others at a level that is unprecedented in baseball history. We hired guys who were respected throughout baseball as being among the best to be our GM & manager, and the results not only didn't stay the same on the field, they got worse. A beloved longtime member of our organization just took his own life and some reports are that the state of the franchise may have been a contributing factor.

No, it can't get worse, short of the team leaving town. I'm not being sarcastic, or exhibiting some form of dark humor here. IT CANNOT GET WORSE. I believe at this point that ANY CHANGE CANNOT BE BAD. I am open to trading any player on the team or in our system, or changing who sits at any desk anywhere in the warehouse. Because I will say again -- IT CANNOT GET WORSE. You think we would have a worse record than we do if Sid Thryft was the GM these past four years? Worse than 54-81? I don't think so. Would our high minors be any more bereft of talent? I don't think so.

IT CANNOT GET WORSE. I am all in favor of any change for change sake. Replace McPhail with an artificial intelligence program? Sure, what the hell. Trade Manny Machado? Why not, unless something in our system changes it's not likely he'll live up to his potential in an Oriole uniform. Send all our international scouts to Equatorial Guinea to cull the best talent from that nation and ignore every other foreign country on earth? Sounds good to me, I doubt we would have any fewer legitimate international prospects in our system than we have now. Only draft players whose last names begin with vowels? I'm all for it. Even if you don't believe in the "sometimes Y" rule. I don't think we would wind up with less talent at AAA 3 or 4 years from now than we have now. Draft only hitters in odd numbered years and only pitchers in even numbered years? Go for it. We suck, and it's DIFFERENT. Maybe we'll still suck. But maybe we won't. Doing the SAME thing just guarantees we'll suck.

[Sports Guy]

No it can actually get worse. We have lost two people that have respect in the industry there is no telling who Mr Burns will hire. Think Sid Thrift.

Thrift was awful and we have more talent now than when he was here...but we are further out of contention right now than when he was the GM.

They are at rock bottom.

[AZRon]

Buck Showalter.

I think Angelos is giving him the keys. He's said he wants to make sure things are being done at the minor league level to prepare for the majors - like monitoring times to home plate.

I think Buck will get to pick his GM with Angelos' approval of course and he and that GM will sit down and rebuild the front office.

Isn't this kind of ass-backwards?

Other than John McGraw and Connie Mack, haven't General Managers traditionally (and most often) chosen the field manager?

If MacPhail's relationship with Angelos has soured, could Angelos's overruling him in the selection of a field manager have been a factor?

I'm sorry, but I cannot conceive of a successful modern major league baseball organization where the most powerful individual reporting to the owner(s) is the field manager

[ChicagoBird]

Too bad we don't have an owner who has any clue of what he's doing. If he did, he'd throw a bunch of money at Ben Cherington and Amiel Sawdaye of the Red Sox, bring them both over and then get out of the way.

As it is, we'll likely hire John Hart, keep the Stockstills and continue to suck for the next decade or so. Wake me up when Petey sells!

[JTrea81]

Isn't this kind of ass-backwards?

Other than John McGraw and Connie Mack, haven't General Managers traditionally (and most often) chosen the field manager?

If MacPhail's relationship with Angelos has soured, could Angelos's overruling him in the selection of a field manager have been a factor?

I'm sorry, but I cannot conceive of a successful modern major league baseball organization where the most powerful individual reporting to the owner(s) is the field manager

Davey Johnson brought in Pat Gillick.

[AZRon]

Davey Johnson brought in Pat Gillick.

It's one thing to suggest that Davey Johnson helped to recruit Pat Gillick

It's quite another to state that:

Davey Johnson was responsible for his hiring

Davey Johnson was responsible for the general management of the Orioles organization during Gillick's tenure here

[JTrea81]

It's one thing to suggest that Davey Johnson helped to recruit Pat Gillick

It's quite another to state that:

Davey Johnson was responsible for his hiring

Davey Johnson was responsible for the general management of the Orioles organization during Gillick's tenure here

The second part is true. But the first:

"I wouldn't have come if it wasn't for Davey. We'd played together and always kept a relationship. He was the reason I came pure and simple. I was reluctant to come. I was consulting for the Blue Jays and very happy. But he just encouraged me. He very much wanted me to come back. He grew up in the Orioles system, and he was excited about that. He convinced me."

- Pat Gillick interviewed in From 33rd Street to Camden Yards

[osfan83]

We have the second worst record in baseball and very little talent in the high minors. We have some highly touted talent in the low minors but our recent track record indicates that we are mostly incapable of turning even "highly touted talent" into major league stars. Attendance at OPACY is at an all time low, and in proportion to the population of our metropolitan area, is at an all time franchise low. We have legitimate competition from a team with potential to become a contender in the market to the south of us for the first time in history. We are in a division with two teams that have spending power out of proportion to all others at a level that is unprecedented in baseball history. We hired guys who were respected throughout baseball as being among the best to be our GM & manager, and the results not only didn't stay the same on the field, they got worse. A beloved longtime member of our organization just took his own life and some reports are that the state of the franchise may have been a contributing factor.

No, it can't get worse, short of the team leaving town. I'm not being sarcastic, or exhibiting some form of dark humor here. IT CANNOT GET WORSE. I believe at this point that ANY CHANGE CANNOT BE BAD. I am open to trading any player on the team or in our system, or changing who sits at any desk anywhere in the warehouse. Because I will say again -- IT CANNOT GET WORSE. You think we would have a worse record than we do if Sid Thryft was the GM these past four years? Worse than 54-81? I don't think so. Would our high minors be any more bereft of talent? I don't think so.

IT CANNOT GET WORSE. I am all in favor of any change for change sake. Replace McPhail with an artificial intelligence program? Sure, what the hell. Trade Manny Machado? Why not, unless something in our system changes it's not likely he'll live up to his potential in an Oriole uniform. Send all our international scouts to Equatorial Guinea to cull the best talent from that nation and ignore every other foreign country on earth? Sounds good to me, I doubt we would have any fewer legitimate international prospects in our system than we have now. Only draft players whose last names begin with vowels? I'm all for it. Even if you don't believe in the "sometimes Y" rule. I don't think we would wind up with less talent at AAA 3 or 4 years from now than we have now. Draft only hitters in odd numbered years and only pitchers in even numbered years? Go for it. We suck, and it's DIFFERENT. Maybe we'll still suck. But maybe we won't. Doing the SAME thing just guarantees we'll suck.

Love it! You are correct! And, if it can get worse, wouldn't it be interesting to follow a team that only wins 18 games in an entire season with pitchers who throw 60mph and hitters that close their eyes when they swing?

[Tony-OH]

Is this upsetting to you? I know you had a good relationship with JJ.

Beyond the "who will replace him stuff", what is your opinion on this, if true?

First off, I like Joe, always have. He's a consummate professional, smart, and above of, he's an excellent scout and negotiator. Have I always agreed with his picks or assessments when I saw some guys, no, but I doubt anyone will ever have full agreement with each other when it comes to evaluating talent. Basically I respect the hell out of him as a scout and as a person.

The more I checked around yesterday the more it was apparent that if Joe is leaving, he hasn't told many people. I don't doubt KLaw's sources or information since he's not the kind of guy going to throw something out there, and the fact that Joe's reply to me was that he wasn't commenting meant something is up.

At the end of the day, I think Joe is an excellent scout, but I think there is some accountability issues with his local scouts. All scouts are going to have misses but to me, if you start writing guys up to the point that Joe gives him a significant bonus, they better show up with some plus skills. Let's take Billy Rowell for instance. Lots of people like to point him out as a scouting failure, but when you see how the ball jumps off Rowell's bat in BP, and you see the hose of an arm, you definitely can understand scouts could think this guy has some real tools to work with. Obviously Rowell turned into a bust for various reasons, but at least you can see the tools.

Then, there are guys that show up that have you scratching your head. Let's start with Givens. He didn't have a projectable body and the only plus tool I've seen is his arm. As much as I liked his short compact swing last year, he seems to be hurting to refind that swing this year. Part of that may be instruction and part of that may be Givens' inability to repeat what he's being taught. Another guy is Connor Narron. I can't see one plus tool in the guys game. There's no plus power, no plus athleticism, no plus range, no plus arm. How do you give $600K to a guy who just wants to walk? He seems like a good kid and all that, but I haven't talked to one scout or player development guy who sees why he got the money he got. To me, this is a scouting issue. I'm sure Joe didn't see Narron that much, so someone talked him up pretty good. I don't put a lot of faith in good high school stats because of inferior competition, but I do pay attention to underwhelming stats. I don't care what high school league you played in, no one should bat .294 as a senior and get $600K.

I've heard through various sources that "all scouts" plus up their scouting reports in order to get their guys drafted. I couldn't tell you whether that's true or not, but it does seem to hold true with some of the Orioles prospects that come into the system. Too many guys don't hold up to their advanced billing.

Again, ultimately the hiring and firing of scouts is Joe Jordan's responsibility so this falls on him. There is definitely an old boys club when it comes to scouting, and I wonder if that's why some guys stay in one place for a long time despite a lack of track record of picking some future major leaguers. Don't get me wrong, the Orioles do have some darn good scouts, but there are some areas that are rich in talent and the Orioles have seen little in return over the years.

BTW, I just wanted to add that the failure of some guys to develop has to be shared by the player development guys. I've seen too many hitters with obvious, fixable flaws in their swing that go year to year with the same flaws. It's been like this for years.

[Flacco Machado]

BTW, I just wanted to add that the failure of some guys to develop has to be shared by the player development guys. I've seen too many hitters with obvious, fixable flaws in their swing that go year to year with the same flaws. It's been like this for years.

Tony, how much of the blame game has gone on over the years when it comes to this issue? In other words, the scouting people blaming the development people for not developing "their" guy properly, or the devlopment guys saying, "well, if you would just get us something better to work with..." to the scouting people?

P.S. I know this issue would have been Chapter One of Mike Flanagan's book.