Dan Klein for Teagarden?

[Lucky Jim]

I see your point, but surplus assumes that you have depth and our pen is still a work in progress.

You're conflating our MLB bullpen with reliever prospects.

[Sports Guy]

But I don't think those guys carried more value in the Hardy deal. I think Hardy was just sold for pennies on the dollar.

I know..but that has nothing to do with my overall point. Henry is a guy that could have been used for something better or just kept in the system.

In other words, he could and should have served a better purpose for the organization than trading him for a dime a dozen back up C.

[Sports Guy]

Well, from your own post(s):

This is what I look at in determining that Klein is a much better prospect. I know that he recently had a pretty major injury, but nothing that I have heard makes me feel like he won't fully recover and Henry has had his own injury problems, although as you point out, not as severe.

You point out their stats at the same level, and I know it is a small sample size, but since you cited it, two things that I look at for minor league arms are WHIP and K/9. Both of these stats were heavily in Klein's favor in Frederick (1.02 WHIP to 1.267, 8.6 K/9 to 6.6) and throughout the system so far (.80 WHIP to 1.216, 10.9 K/9 to 8.3). I know that Henry has almost twice as many innings pitched in the system, but that's really all we have to go by. I think you mentioned earlier that Henry's WHIP could be partially attributed to sketchy defense, and that may be partially true since he alllows more ground balls. But the hitters are going to get better and 6.6 K/9 and 10.2 hits/9 are not great numbers at A ball. I know that there are other things to look at, but those are not very projectible to me right now.

To me, Klein has a lot more options for success. He may be a middle reliever, but he also has the repertoire to possibly be a starter or could be a closer at some point. Henry is a middle reliever, I just don't see many other possibilities there. To me, Klein has the better projectible stats and has many more opportunities to be valuable at a major league level.

I will admit that I may be overrating Teagarden a bit. I loved him in college and thoght that he would be a more productive player at this point. But in all honesty, he is a solid backup catcher that we got for someone that I would be pretty surprised if they reached the ML level in any capacity. I wish Henry nothing but luck, but most teams have a dozen similarly talented guys. I just think that Teagarden is a much more valuable piece and I like the trade. Either way, I don't think it is worth getting worked up about because it is a pretty minor move that does not really predict anything to come, one way or the other.

Welcome Taylor and good luck in Texas, Randy.

You lost me when you started to cite WHIP as some real stat that should be used in evaluation.

[Frobby]

I know..but that has nothing to do with my overall point. Henry is a guy that could have been used for something better or just kept in the system.

In other words, he could and should have served a better purpose for the organization than trading him for a dime a dozen back up C.

This entire debate comes down to whether you think that Teagarden presents a better value proposition than the other catchers available on the market. You could pick up some Tatum-like catcher for free, or you could pick up a Shoppach for a couple million bucks.

Personally, I like Teagarden, and think he's a better option that either of those two alternatives. Therefore, I'm willing to give up something to get him. Randy Henry and a Rule 5 pick sounds fair to me.

I don't see Teagarden as "dime a dozen." I think he'll be one of the better back-up catchers in baseball, and a solid fallback if something happens to Wieters, or if we decide to trade Wieters some day.

[Sports Guy]

This entire debate comes down to whether you think that Teagarden presents a better value proposition than the other catchers available on the market. You could pick up some Tatum-like catcher for free, or you could pick up a Shoppach for a couple million bucks.

Personally, I like Teagarden, and think he's a better option that either of those two alternatives. Therefore, I'm willing to give up something to get him. Randy Henry and a Rule 5 pick sounds fair to me.

I don't see Teagarden as "dime a dozen." I think he'll be one of the better back-up catchers in baseball, and a solid fallback if something happens to Wieters, or if we decide to trade Wieters some day.

On Wednesday(or any other day before yesterday), were you advocating that Teagarden be the catcher we should target?

[lovetoaster]

You lost me when you started to cite WHIP as some real stat that should be used in evaluation.

OK, because if someone gives up a lot of walks and hits in A ball, that surely is going to decline as they progress to the majors and face better hitters. But hey, thanks for the condescension.

[Sports Guy]

OK, because if someone gives up a lot of walks and hits in A ball, that surely is going to decline as they progress to the majors and face better hitters. But hey, thanks for the condescension.

Well, he didn't give up a lot of walks and its poor to use WHIP because of the hit part of it.

He is a GB pitcher...Klein is a flyball pitcher. The GB pitcher is going to give up more hits, especially when you are playing on fields that aren't as good as ML fields and with players behind you who may not be that good defensively.

Its just worthless to look at it...The HR rates, K rates, BB rates and K/BB ratios are much more important.

[lovetoaster]

Well, he didn't give up a lot of walks and its poor to use WHIP because of the hit part of it.

He is a GB pitcher...Klein is a flyball pitcher. The GB pitcher is going to give up more hits, especially when you are playing on fields that aren't as good as ML fields and with players behind you who may not be that good defensively.

Its just worthless to look at it...The HR rates, K rates, BB rates and K/BB ratios are much more important.

OK, that's better, and I do see your point here. I guess I should have said hits/9, but your argument would have still been the same (not saying that it is not valid). The fields may get better and the defense may get better as he moves up, but the hitters are going to get a lot better too. I don't know if he has the stuff to make it up the ladder. But, we will see I suppose. I have to get back to work, so I am going to have to bow out. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree here.

[Sports Guy]

OK, that's better, and I do see your point here. I guess I should have said hits/9, but your argument would have still been the same (not saying that it is not valid). The fields may get better and the defense may get better as he moves up, but the hitters are going to get a lot better too. I don't know if he has the stuff to make it up the ladder. But, we will see I suppose. I have to get back to work, so I am going to have to bow out. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree here.

Well, by that logic, won't Klein give up more homers as he moves up the ladder and faces better hitters, since he is more of a flyball pitcher?

[Lucky Jim]

Well, by that logic, won't Klein give up more homers as he moves up the ladder and faces better hitters, since he is more of a flyball pitcher?

I tend to think we over-rate Klein, and don't discount enough for his injury and for the fact that his shot at starting is, well, shot. That said, his "now" stuff is a lot more fully developed than Henry's, and Henry has his own injury issues. I wouldn't trade Klein for Henry, or Klein+ for Teagarden, but the two aren't that far apart.

[lovetoaster]

Well, by that logic, won't Klein give up more homers as he moves up the ladder and faces better hitters, since he is more of a flyball pitcher?

Yes, absolutely. But I also think he is a better pitcher that has more ways to get people out as their careers progress. Depending on how he comes back from his injury, of course.

[GoldGlove21]

You're conflating our MLB bullpen with reliever prospects.

Maybe, but Jim Johnson is the only guy in our current pen that came through our system. Our ability to develop quality relief pitchers is right up there with our inability to develop starters IMO. Dealing away relief pitching prospect decreases the chances of our future pen being composed of pitchers who came through our system versus free agents or trades. If there is one simple way to save money it has to be tied to relief pitchers and bench players coming from within your own organization.

[Sports Guy]

I tend to think we over-rate Klein, and don't discount enough for his injury and for the fact that his shot at starting is, well, shot. That said, his "now" stuff is a lot more fully developed than Henry's, and Henry has his own injury issues. I wouldn't trade Klein for Henry, or Klein+ for Teagarden, but the two aren't that far apart.

Look, I like Klein more than Henry as well.

But the differences between Klein and Henry(if you assume Klein is a reliever only) are not that great.

As I said, I think this is a case where people are going with the name guy, the guy who has recently been drafted and the guy that Tony(and others) have ranked higher....but they are ignoring performance, age, GB vs FB pitcher and the fact that Klein's rankings are largely based on his potential to be a starter.

If they are both relievers, they basically project to the same role. In that same role, Klein is not way ahead of Henry in terms of a prospect IMO. I would agree that he is ahead but the difference between being your #12 prospect and your #18 prospect isn't really much and you can sit there and argue whether the guys in between them, should be between them.

Most of the time, middle relief/set up prospects aren't ranked all that high in their respective organizations, so I don't think where the players are ranked here really matters.

And its not like Klein was a first rounder and Henry was an 8th rounder...They were drafted one round apart.

[Lucky Jim]

Maybe, but Jim Johnson is the only guy in our current pen that came through our system. Our ability to develop quality relief pitchers is right up there with our inability to develop starters IMO. Dealing away relief pitching prospect decreases the chances of our future pen being composed of pitchers who came through our system versus free agents or trades. If there is one simple way to save money it has to be tied to relief pitchers and bench players coming from within your own organization.

The fact that we've done a terrible job of developing doesn't mean we need to horde. It means we need to draft and develop better. Lots of arms in the last few drafts who could be in our bullpen soon. It's not the historical context that we need to refer to, it's the now-context. Do we have a lot of others like Henry? The answer is, well, kinda. Did we before? Not so much.

[DrungoHazewood]

Yes, because I don't believe quality of the players involved should be used when determining trades.