Duquette and the Pennant: This Time It's Personal

[weams]

Call me Brute.

Et tu?

...

[weams]

These rumors (and their possible bases in "fact") feel very knee-jerk and hastily conceived. I'm not looking to rebuild forever...but I'm also not eager to see the GM cut the red wire and cross his fingers, either.

It's the yellow wire isn't it?

[sangar]

Exaclty, as long as we're talking about George Patton and not General Custer, we are probably ok.

Point taken, a lot of it depends on timing and ability. I'd like to think DD is looking at strategy more than tactics.

Are you referring to Custer at Little Big Horn or Gettysburg?

[MrOrange82]

It's the yellow wire isn't it?

I thought black is usually the ground?

[NewMarketSean]

Every year I hear people talk about not wanting to "trade the future" for a win now approach. Guess what, that "future" we never traded away has seen us play under .500 ball for 14 straight years.

You had me right there.

I'd like to keep Bundy and Machado but I'd be willing to make any other move necessary that makes us better now -- and for the future.

[Flash- bd]

Eh, I just don't think trading prospects for rentals is ever a good idea for trying to build a contender. It's desperation, simple as that. I'm a firm believe that you make real in-roads selling at the trade deadline, not buying. I'd like to see us follow closer to the Rangers model, here. They transformed their organization with their 2007 deadline deal for Teixeira. After that, they made smart moves--not unwilling to trade a big prospect, but making sure they got long-term reward in exchange (see: Volquez for Hamilton before 2008 season). Not unwilling to sign a big free agent (see Adrian Beltre, Yu Darvish), either.

We have enough talent in this organization now where we have the luxury of following a similar model.

As for the idea that Greinke would make us more palatable to free agents, I have a hard time buying that. The fact is there are so many FA pitching options that almost every dancer is going to be left with a partner, should they want one. Besides that, people are forgetting that Greinke could easily come in here and make very little difference at all. It's not at all inconceivable that we trade for him and get 10 starts to the tune of about a 4.50 ERA. It's also not inconceivable we get 10 starts to the tune of about a 2.75 ERA, but even in that case he's probably only worth 2-3 wins. I really don't think 2-3 wins is going to make the difference between us being considered an "up-and-coming" team to FAs or not. If we finish above .500, we'll be considered up-and-coming. Depending on if Tillman and Gonzalez are for real, we probably already have a good chance at .500.

I know it's kind of lame to quote yourself--and I know we've talked a lot about the 2013 FA pitching class--but I posted this in the Greinke thread and I think it bears repeating:

Another reason trading for Greinke is a really bad idea. He is one of the sexiest names in a 2013 FA pitching class which is loaded with talent and potential steals. Greinke and Hamels (and probably Peavy)--like most big name FAs with that "it" factor--will be overpaid. But check out all the other names who could be major upgrades for MUCH less:

(Peavy: 22M club option vs. 4M buyout--have to think they'll opt for the latter)

Ryan Dempster

Dan Haren (15.5 M club option vs. 3.5 M buyout--have to think they'll opt for the latter)

Edwin Jackson

Bartolo Colon

Francisco Liriano

Scott Baker

Colby Lewis

Shaun Marcum

Brandon McCarthy

Anibal Sanchez

Ervin Santana (13M club option vs 1M buyout--have to think they'll opt for the latter)

Joe Saunders

Chien-Ming Wang

Chris Young

Carlos Zambrano

Hiroki Kuroda

Honestly, it's not only trading for 2-3 months of Greinke which is a terrible idea. It might also be potentially overpaying for him for the next 3-5 years on an extension, when there are better, more cost effective alternatives outside (and arguably within, if you believe Matusz and Arrieta can become competent starters as I believe they can) the organization.

Hell, if it's true that the Braves are willing to offer Delgado or Teheran for Greinke, why not see what Hammel can fetch from them? I was thoroughly impressed by Delgado when he pitched against us.

[bobmc]

This!

I'm glad we are in a position to at least consider being buyers at the deadline for a change. The fact is, as much as Machado and Bundy look like sure thing Major Leaguers, what has Matt Wieters become? Yes, he's an All-Star. Yes, he's a great player. But he's not the superstar, throw the team on his back kind of player we all expected.

My point is, you never really know how good these prospects will be. My wish would be not to trade any of these top guys, but on the other hand, if we are close (and lets face it, as bad as we've been, we STILL would make the playoffs if the season ended today) then I say go for it this year! It could be another ten years before we get another chance! You just never know what tomorrow brings.

That! :agree:

Finally Dipper being a mensch! I am also drinking the Duq-ade! Go down in flames - sell cindy's soul to the devil, prop BRob's limp body on a stake and set it in the dugout for motivation (hyperbole, of course) - do anything for a win this year. All in! :2yay-thumb:

[Tony-OH]

The entire "going for it" scenario raises alarm bells for me. The team obviously has a ton of holes...in every aspect of the game. It'd be possible to kill multiple birds with single-stones by acquiring offensive players who can both hit and play defense, but, then again, how many stones do the O's really have to throw? Furthermore, where was this ambition during the winter months? The O's were outbid for Fielder (not that I agree with, or would have supported, the contract given to him by Detroit), and the only trade "of consequence" the team made was sending Guthrie to Colorado. Chen was a good...and extremely "cheap," minimally-contested signing. And then there were the Nick Johnson, Matt Antonelli, etc.-type acquisitions. Unless we're counting the Betemit signing as a signal that DD was planning to go all-out in 2012.

These rumors (and their possible bases in "fact") feel very knee-jerk and hastily conceived. I'm not looking to rebuild forever...but I'm also not eager to see the GM cut the red wire and cross his fingers, either.

Why? The team has outperformed what we thought and are in a position to make a run if they can add some pieces. I like the fact that the GM is not set in stone but accepts the fluidity of the situation and reacts accordingly. Five year plans don't work because there are too many factors that need to happen correctly for them to do so. MacPhail proved that because the Calvary had to come through for his to work and they didn't.

I'm not suggesting we drain the farm of everything, but let's face it, outside of Machado and Bundy, who are the impact prospects in the system? Schoop, perhaps, but even guys like Hoes and Delmonico really grade out more as solid regulars. There's nothing wrong with that, but they are not the kinds of prospects you hold up and wait for. When they are ready they arrive and if they're good enough they beat out whoever is in the way. If they are good enough and we already have a guy entrenched in their position then we have trade depth. This is how good organizations work.

Let's worry about this season first. We have a whole off season to worry about next year and beyond. It's time for a different philosophy and I think Duquette has the right one. Even with this flawed team, it's time to take a chance.

[MrOrange82]

Why? The team has outperformed what we thought and are in a position to make a run if they can add some pieces. I like the fact that the GM is not set in stone but accepts the fluidity of the situation and reacts accordingly. Five year plans don't work because there are too many factors that need to happen correctly for them to do so. MacPhail proved that because the Calvary had to come through for his to work and they didn't.

I'm not suggesting we drain the farm of everything, but let's face it, outside of Machado and Bundy, who are the impact prospects int he system? Schoop, perhaps, but even guys like Hoes and Delmonico really grade out more as solid regulars. There's nothing wrong with that, but they are not the kinds of prospects you hold up and wait for. When they are ready they arrive and if they're good enough they beat out whoever is in the way. If they are good enough and we already have a guy entrenched in their position then we have trade depth. This is how good organizations work.

Let's worry about this season first. We have a whole off season to worry about next year and beyond. It's time for a different philosophy and I think Duquette has the right one. Even with this flawed team, it's time to take a chance.

I can't/don't disagree with your appraisal of the system, as well as how...infuriating...it's been to watch this team and its operations over the last 14 years. But, as you pointed out, outside of Bundy, Machado, and (perhaps) Schoop...what does the Orioles' system have to offer other teams? How can DD make a significant "splash" without putting one or more of those extremely rare, valuable MiLers at risk?

Don't get me wrong...if he could get someone like Greinke at the cost of an Arrieta and 2-3 of the O's C-level prospects, well...no harm, no foul, I suppose. But what are the odds, honestly, that the Brewers would go for something like that? And even if they'd consider it, what are the odds that a better-equipped organization wouldn't top the offer?

[Malike]

I'd rather see Roch say Duquette and the Pennant: This time it's permanent!

I don't want to see a one and done type run this season.

[osfan83]

For what it's worth, a lot of the great men throughout history, from Julius Caesar to George Patton, were motivated by self promotion and personal glory. While it is selfish, it is not inherently a bad thing.

I think having a GM with something to prove is the best thing that could happen to this team! Give me a GM with a personal agenda, that wants to prove be belongs back in the league, and wants to rub his success in the faces of all the guys who passed him over the last 10 years. DD, put the O's in the playoffs 3 years in a row, and then move on to another market if you so choose, I'm happy with that. And to be honest, I'm really tired of 5 years plans. every 5 years we hire a new guy who says, "give me 5 years to build a winner". I'd rather have a GM and manager who want to win this year...and then want to win next year and the year after that. No more taking the preasure off our GM's for 5 years while they rebuild.

[Dipper9]

I'd rather see Roch say Duquette and the Pennant: This time it's permanent!

I don't want to see a one and done type run this season.

Its obviously the beginning of a trilogy.

Episode 12: Duquette and the Pennant

After 14 years of losing, Orioles GM Dan Duquette sells his soul to the evil Emperor Selig, trading Calvary soldiers Brian Matusz and Jake Arrieta to the Brewers for veteran starter Zack Greinke.

Episode 13: The Orioles Strike Back

After missing out on the 2012 wild card by 3 games, the Orioles sign Cole Hammels and resign Zack Greinke to go along with 2012 standouts Hammel and Chen and Tillman. A big offseason trade to acquire Headley from the Padres has the Orioles looking to make it to the playoffs for the first time since 1997.

Episode 14: The Return of the Magic

After being eliminated in the Wild Card playoff game in 2013, the Orioles have seen the arrival of Jedi phenoms Manny Machado, Dylan Bundy, and Johnathan Scoop to Camden Yards to finally go all the way in their quest to destroy the Evil Empire New York Yankees Dynasty!

[VeveJones007]

Why? The team has outperformed what we thought and are in a position to make a run if they can add some pieces. I like the fact that the GM is not set in stone but accepts the fluidity of the situation and reacts accordingly. Five year plans don't work because there are too many factors that need to happen correctly for them to do so. MacPhail proved that because the Calvary had to come through for his to work and they didn't.

I'm not suggesting we drain the farm of everything, but let's face it, outside of Machado and Bundy, who are the impact prospects in the system? Schoop, perhaps, but even guys like Hoes and Delmonico really grade out more as solid regulars. There's nothing wrong with that, but they are not the kinds of prospects you hold up and wait for. When they are ready they arrive and if they're good enough they beat out whoever is in the way. If they are good enough and we already have a guy entrenched in their position then we have trade depth. This is how good organizations work.

Let's worry about this season first. We have a whole off season to worry about next year and beyond. It's time for a different philosophy and I think Duquette has the right one. Even with this flawed team, it's time to take a chance.

Exactly. Very few people are actually suggesting that the O's trade Bundy and Machado. Pretty much everyone else is MUCH more replaceable, especially with a new regime that is putting an emphasis on the international market.

[MrOrange82]

Its obviously the beginning of a trilogy.

Episode 12: Duquette and the Pennant

After 14 years of losing, Orioles GM Dan Duquette sells his soul to the evil Emperor Selig, trading Calvary soldiers Brian Matusz and Jake Arrieta to the Brewers for veteran starter Zack Greinke.

Episode 13: The Orioles Strike Back

After missing out on the 2012 wild card by 3 games, the Orioles sign Cole Hammels and resign Zack Greinke to go along with 2012 standouts Hammel and Chen and Tillman. A big offseason trade to acquire Headley from the Padres has the Orioles looking to make it to the playoffs for the first time since 1997.

Episode 14: The Return of the Magic

After being eliminated in the Wild Card playoff game in 2013, the Orioles have seen the arrival of Jedi phenoms Manny Machado, Dylan Bundy, and Johnathan Scoop to Camden Yards to finally go all the way in their quest to destroy the Evil Empire New York Yankees Dynasty!

Episode 9: George Lucas travels back in time to add special effects to DD's endearingly flawed, high-performing creation, supplementing the Orioles' roster with several of the most hated characters ever to (dubiously) grace ESPN highlight reels. Lucas also pastes Hayden Christensen's head to pictures of DD's father (and wife, oddly enough) stating simply "yeah, I thought it looked better."

[Dipper9]

Episode 9: George Lucas travels back in time to add special effects to DD's endearingly flawed, high-performing creation, supplementing the Orioles' roster with several of the most hated characters ever to (dubiously) grace ESPN highlight reels. Lucas also pastes Hayden Christensen's head to pictures of DD's father (and wife, oddly enough) stating simply "yeah, I thought it looked better."

:vader: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!