Today's Cincinnati Enquirer -

[UMterp08]

+rep for O'chested. Thanks for the info.

[RShack]

O'chested, I dunno who you are, but I appreciate what you just said...

[Fan4Life]

Hey guys' date=' 1st post here. I am a Red's fan but thought to myself why not go with and Orioles name while on here thus the O'chested. Ask all you like about the Red's I fell very confident about my ability to give you guys any neccessary info with regards to the Red's players, prospects, mindset etc.

I have been lurking here for a couple of weeks off and on and would like to clear up some misconceptions about some Red's related items.

[/quote']

Great post man.... very informative, thanks for the effort!

[Scribo]

It would be Cueto' date=' Votto, Dorn and Lutz (who I admittedly only know little about, except that many I respect seem to like him almost as much as Roenicke). [/quote']

Great post, seems you are very well-informed.

I like Hamilton a lot too. I do think there's a chance we see him at .970-plus OPS next season.

A couple of questions. Do you think the Reds see Bruce being ready to start in CF? And why would you see Hamilton moving to right? Any problems with his CF defense?

[Fan4Life]

Great post, seems you are very well-informed.

I like Hamilton a lot too. I do think there's a chance we see him at .970-plus OPS next season.

A couple of questions. Do you think the Reds see Bruce being ready to start in CF? And why would you see Hamilton moving to right? Any problems with his CF defense?

I have a question for you.... after getting up to speed on Hamilton, why is it that many of the proposed trades I see made by very respectable posters don't include him? He's proven MLB talent, not a prospect.... his personal issues appear to be behind him.... what am I missing?

[doggiedogma]

Hey guys' date=' 1st post here. I am a Red's fan but thought to myself why not go with and Orioles name while on here thus the O'chested. Ask all you like about the Red's I fell very confident about my ability to give you guys any neccessary info with regards to the Red's players, prospects, mindset etc.

I have been lurking here for a couple of weeks off and on and would like to clear up some misconceptions about some Red's related items.

#1 - Homer Bailey is not a problem child and will never be one. He did state at one point around the time he was drafted that baseball to him was more a situation where he is good at it therefore it's more a job than a passion. At the time that concerned me a great deal obviously. However that shouldn't worry anyone because he's a classy individual and a true professional, so he goes about his business in a blue collar way. And I believe that baseball has grown on him, just my opinion but if he had never said that originally you couldn't have been able to tell by the way he competes and plays the game with the type of intensity you wish everyone on the team would have.

He does have a few issues like his command isn't neccessarily on par with a Hughes or maybe even Bucholz but his ceiling is higher than either. The command does worry some Red's fans but not me so much as again he's a hard worker and I believe he will get that straightened out. He watched some film last year after one outing (perhaps more as well not sure) and detected a flaw himself. His delivery for a power pitcher is outstanding and we all know how important that is to avoiding arm, elbow, shoulder injuries so that should also help to benefit him while trying to work out his command issues.

His fastball is usually around 93-95 and I have seen him get it up to 98 ('06 Futures game) and up to '97 last year. His curve is very good as well and he is still working on his change-up but it is coming along and it's currently avg, I think it might be his arm action that is keeping it avg but that's just my opinion. Overall I think he needs a bit more polish on command and control but he's not as far away IMO than DCab.

#2 - Josh Hamilton is quite literally "The Natural", he's not nearly as big as say Adam Dunn but hit's the ball with as much authority and with much less effort. When you watch him it's as if he just swings like he's just trying to make contact, flicks those wrists and it's hammered. He squares the ball so well which is what makes him so effective. When you watch him play he makes everyone else look like they are struggling or simply put just do not have anywhere near the talent, it's a beautiful thing. He can play CF adequately however he projects to be a RF with an awesome cannon of an arm and amazing accuracy. His only true on the field issue so far has been a lack of hitting vs. LHP but again this IMO is just a matter of time given the fact that he reads the ball literally as it's in the hand of the pitcher (again literally), has great plate discipline, very good plate coverage and quick hands and outstanding bat control. And he is a tad bit rusty on the basepaths but is still above league avg there as well. Ya gotta remember with him that he hasn't gotten to develop much in the minors due to being out of the game alltogether (no ball at all) for 5 years.

IMO We would be foolish to part with these 2 guys however I understand the nature of the situation, we plan to put a winner on the field this year and these our are best tradeable commodities after Jay Bruce who is also a phenom. But Bruce is too young and talented to deal it's just that simple. I see this kid smoking the competition for NL ROY this upcoming season if we can clear a spot for him. But as good as he is and he is very, very good his pure natural talent is still a tick below Hamilton IMO. Hamilton is in the class of Griffey or A-Rod if he hadn't had the drug issues, he is just that good.

Speaking of which Hamilton is clean and has been for 2 years and as much as that's not a guarantee of anything it certainly speaks volumes about his resolve and a credit to his faith. To go from not being able to stay clean for mere hours to clean for 2 yrs says alot. However it brings up a valid point which is his biggest question mark in my mind. Did the abuse (and the auto accident which put him in the hole to begin with) take it's toll to the point where he will not be able to stay on the field enough to take advantage of his tremendous talents? That my friends is the big question, and if he can answer it this season (he's conditioning himself this offseason for the rigors of a full season) he will hold tremendous value this time next year.

#3 - Jhonny Cueto - He's a future #2 if his slight frame holds up whereas Bailey is a surefire #1 if he get's his command/control straight. Bailey a higher ceiling, Cueto a higher floor that is the biggest difference between the 2. The one other thing that Cueto has over Bailey is that he is a more natural "pitcher" in that he just knows how to go after guys, set them up use all his pitches in all counts etc. Whereas Bailey up until his debut pretty much didn't have to throw much of anything beyond his fastball and occasional curve. His heater was just to difficult for lower level guys to catch up to for him to have to rely on anything else.

Cueto throws his fastball regularly at around 89-93 but oddly enough can get it all the way up to 97 when need be. He actually changes speeds alot and is very succesful at it. He also throws a good slider and good change-up. He's sorta Pedro-esque with fewer pitches and probably less movement on his pitches (Pedro had awesome movement as we all know). His command and control are very good. So it has been just a matter of stretching him out so we can use him at the big league level as a starter (Krivsky doesn't believe in breaking in starters by using the pen, unless he has to See: Valenzuela).

#4 - Votto, you guys are pretty much on the mark about this kid. He's another solid citizen, very intelligent and well rounded (loves to read real books ). Is very talented but not on the level of a Bruce, but he is well rounded on the field as well and although his defense isn't gold glove caliber he has come along way already and I would expect him to continue to improve to be a solid defender. His bat is power + avg and as someone pointed out he can run pretty well for a 1B. Overall Joey is pretty much what you see.

#5 - Stubbs is likely better than some suggest, although the jury is still out on him. Alot of Reds fans think he will never pan out, I won't commit either way but will say I saw a big jump in his development last season. His only real issue is contact but of course that's a big one. However we have primarily used him as a leadoff hitter up until right around the time he took off last year (took alot of pitches) and then he was moved down to the 5th hole (didn't have to take as many pitches). And also his manager at Dayton forced him to choke up on the bat at about the same time as well. What happened was a lot better contact and thus a lot better #'s. If that wasn't just a hot streak (about the final 2+ months) then he has turned a corner and if so everything else should fall into place to make him a Gold Glove CF and perhaps a bat along the lines of a Mike Cameron. I sorta expect him to start out at AA this year if for no other reason than to keep a guy who has struggled in the past to avoid playing in the harder to hit FSL.

And the rest is.....Keppinger can hit but lacks the range to be an all-star SS, but can play there and does pretty fair. Dorn is a masher and a solid prospect but can he hit well enough to start in a COF spot and will he hit LHP? Roenicke is a stud if he get's his command polished up a bit. Loo is a big question mark, however the fact he came up in discussions makes me wonder if he hasn't re-thought his options and may be on the road back. He can hit but may not be a SS probably a 3B. Valaika will be a 2B. Janish is maybe Adam Everett, maybe. Encarnacion isn't a likely person to be dealt due to a lack of a suitable replacement (Keppinger maybe could fill in). But Encarnacion has a knack for driving in runs and his defense is improving and he is a key RH bat for us (we are very LH heavy). Phillips may be the 3rd most untouchable in the entire organization behind only Bruce and Harang and just ahead of Dunn. Francisco has a chance but a slight one unless he changes his complete approach at the plate (swings at everything) and moves to another position or dramatically improves at 3rd (error machine). And Pelland (SP), Viola (RP), Wood (SP) and Maloney (SP) are all quality LH's with a good future who are not that far away. And Carlos Fisher is a solid sleeper starter who keeps the ball on the ground.

And my guess is if we can make a deal it will likely be:

Bailey or Cueto

Hamilton or Votto

Stubbs

Pelland (LHRP)

for Bedard and Bradford

If it were me (Just because I love Hamilton's potential)

It would be Cueto, Votto, Dorn and Lutz (who I admittedly only know little about, except that many I respect seem to like him almost as much as Roenicke). But I would be content with Bailey or Hamilton going as I wanna win ultimately and Bedard is a big step in the right direction. I might be inclined to raise that offer a tad if Bedard was willing to sign a LTC before the deal, but I think we all know that won't happen which is driving his price down. Nobody wants to deal a potential ready superstar for a guy who is gonna walk in 2 years, but we have went out on the ledge offering what we have offered.[/quote']

From the Reds for Bedard it would take Bailey, Votto, Burton and Keppinger. That would be fair to me for Bedard.

[Fan4Life]

From the Reds for Bedard it would take Bailey, Votto, Burton and Keppinger. That would be fair to me for Bedard.

How many of those guys are already at the ML level?

[Hank Scorpio]

How many of those guys are already at the ML level?

Keppinger & Burton.

That's a far, far cry from what you thought was fair from the Dodgers, Doggie. What gives?

[Fan4Life]

Only Burton, I believe.

That's a far, far cry from what you thought was fair from the Dodgers, Doggie. What gives?

Well I'm not as high on Bedard as DD, but for him I need at least one young stud thats shown he can play at the ML level like Kemp or Hamilton in a trade.

[Scribo]

I have a question for you.... after getting up to speed on Hamilton, why is it that many of the proposed trades I see made by very respectable posters don't include him? He's proven MLB talent, not a prospect.... his personal issues appear to be behind him.... what am I missing?

You're asking the wrong guy. I have been high on him since the first time we heard of interest from the Reds. There are others too.

If I had to guess why some are less impressed:

1) the drug problem, obviously;

2) a spotty MiL record. But those MiL seasons with six and seven years ago, many of them put up while he was already struggling with substance abuse. His AA season was cut short when he was told to go home and work out his problems. And he was the crown jewel of their system, so you know it had to be bad.

I throw all that out the window. To me he is a unique case, given the circumstances and his talent. As good as he was this year, he was probably still feeling his way around and getting into game shape -- .921 OPS after being out of the game and abusing his mind and body for 4-plus years is amazing. I would not be surprised to see him have a monster year in 08.

[doggiedogma]

Keppinger & Burton.

That's a far, far cry from what you thought was fair from the Dodgers, Doggie. What gives?

Bailey is also at the ML level with Burton and Keppinger (very slightly), Votto evens it out. YDo you think that is not enough?

[Hank Scorpio]

Bailey is also at the ML level with Burton and Keppinger (very slightly), Votto evens it out. YDo you think that is not enough?

I'm just not a big proponent of trading for relief pitchers, I guess.

Billingsley, Kemp & LaRoche >>>>>>>>>>>> Bailey, Votto, Burton & Keppinger.

For me, anyways.

[doggiedogma]

I'm just not a big proponent of trading for relief pitchers, I guess.

Billingsley, Kemp & LaRoche >>>>>>>>>>>> Bailey, Votto, Burton & Keppinger.

For me, anyways.

I agree with you;

[Hank Scorpio]

Except that there's no way the first deal is ever gonna happen, while there's a realistic chance on the 2nd.

Oh, I know this... it wasn't my idea

So this raises a question (and a legitimate one, IMO). If we end up doing this Cincinnati deal, how would we all feel about it?

[ChaosLex]

Hey guys' date=' 1st post here. I am a Red's fan but thought to myself why not go with and Orioles name while on here thus the O'chested. Ask all you like about the Red's I fell very confident about my ability to give you guys any neccessary info with regards to the Red's players, prospects, mindset etc.

I have been lurking here for a couple of weeks off and on and would like to clear up some misconceptions about some Red's related items.

#1 - Homer Bailey is not a problem child and will never be one. He did state at one point around the time he was drafted that baseball to him was more a situation where he is good at it therefore it's more a job than a passion. At the time that concerned me a great deal obviously. However that shouldn't worry anyone because he's a classy individual and a true professional, so he goes about his business in a blue collar way. And I believe that baseball has grown on him, just my opinion but if he had never said that originally you couldn't have been able to tell by the way he competes and plays the game with the type of intensity you wish everyone on the team would have.

He does have a few issues like his command isn't neccessarily on par with a Hughes or maybe even Bucholz but his ceiling is higher than either. The command does worry some Red's fans but not me so much as again he's a hard worker and I believe he will get that straightened out. He watched some film last year after one outing (perhaps more as well not sure) and detected a flaw himself. His delivery for a power pitcher is outstanding and we all know how important that is to avoiding arm, elbow, shoulder injuries so that should also help to benefit him while trying to work out his command issues.

His fastball is usually around 93-95 and I have seen him get it up to 98 ('06 Futures game) and up to '97 last year. His curve is very good as well and he is still working on his change-up but it is coming along and it's currently avg, I think it might be his arm action that is keeping it avg but that's just my opinion. Overall I think he needs a bit more polish on command and control but he's not as far away IMO than DCab.

#2 - Josh Hamilton is quite literally "The Natural", he's not nearly as big as say Adam Dunn but hit's the ball with as much authority and with much less effort. When you watch him it's as if he just swings like he's just trying to make contact, flicks those wrists and it's hammered. He squares the ball so well which is what makes him so effective. When you watch him play he makes everyone else look like they are struggling or simply put just do not have anywhere near the talent, it's a beautiful thing. He can play CF adequately however he projects to be a RF with an awesome cannon of an arm and amazing accuracy. His only true on the field issue so far has been a lack of hitting vs. LHP but again this IMO is just a matter of time given the fact that he reads the ball literally as it's in the hand of the pitcher (again literally), has great plate discipline, very good plate coverage and quick hands and outstanding bat control. And he is a tad bit rusty on the basepaths but is still above league avg there as well. Ya gotta remember with him that he hasn't gotten to develop much in the minors due to being out of the game alltogether (no ball at all) for 5 years.

IMO We would be foolish to part with these 2 guys however I understand the nature of the situation, we plan to put a winner on the field this year and these our are best tradeable commodities after Jay Bruce who is also a phenom. But Bruce is too young and talented to deal it's just that simple. I see this kid smoking the competition for NL ROY this upcoming season if we can clear a spot for him. But as good as he is and he is very, very good his pure natural talent is still a tick below Hamilton IMO. Hamilton is in the class of Griffey or A-Rod if he hadn't had the drug issues, he is just that good.

Speaking of which Hamilton is clean and has been for 2 years and as much as that's not a guarantee of anything it certainly speaks volumes about his resolve and a credit to his faith. To go from not being able to stay clean for mere hours to clean for 2 yrs says alot. However it brings up a valid point which is his biggest question mark in my mind. Did the abuse (and the auto accident which put him in the hole to begin with) take it's toll to the point where he will not be able to stay on the field enough to take advantage of his tremendous talents? That my friends is the big question, and if he can answer it this season (he's conditioning himself this offseason for the rigors of a full season) he will hold tremendous value this time next year.

#3 - Jhonny Cueto - He's a future #2 if his slight frame holds up whereas Bailey is a surefire #1 if he get's his command/control straight. Bailey a higher ceiling, Cueto a higher floor that is the biggest difference between the 2. The one other thing that Cueto has over Bailey is that he is a more natural "pitcher" in that he just knows how to go after guys, set them up use all his pitches in all counts etc. Whereas Bailey up until his debut pretty much didn't have to throw much of anything beyond his fastball and occasional curve. His heater was just to difficult for lower level guys to catch up to for him to have to rely on anything else.

Cueto throws his fastball regularly at around 89-93 but oddly enough can get it all the way up to 97 when need be. He actually changes speeds alot and is very succesful at it. He also throws a good slider and good change-up. He's sorta Pedro-esque with fewer pitches and probably less movement on his pitches (Pedro had awesome movement as we all know). His command and control are very good. So it has been just a matter of stretching him out so we can use him at the big league level as a starter (Krivsky doesn't believe in breaking in starters by using the pen, unless he has to See: Valenzuela).

#4 - Votto, you guys are pretty much on the mark about this kid. He's another solid citizen, very intelligent and well rounded (loves to read real books ). Is very talented but not on the level of a Bruce, but he is well rounded on the field as well and although his defense isn't gold glove caliber he has come along way already and I would expect him to continue to improve to be a solid defender. His bat is power + avg and as someone pointed out he can run pretty well for a 1B. Overall Joey is pretty much what you see.

#5 - Stubbs is likely better than some suggest, although the jury is still out on him. Alot of Reds fans think he will never pan out, I won't commit either way but will say I saw a big jump in his development last season. His only real issue is contact but of course that's a big one. However we have primarily used him as a leadoff hitter up until right around the time he took off last year (took alot of pitches) and then he was moved down to the 5th hole (didn't have to take as many pitches). And also his manager at Dayton forced him to choke up on the bat at about the same time as well. What happened was a lot better contact and thus a lot better #'s. If that wasn't just a hot streak (about the final 2+ months) then he has turned a corner and if so everything else should fall into place to make him a Gold Glove CF and perhaps a bat along the lines of a Mike Cameron. I sorta expect him to start out at AA this year if for no other reason than to keep a guy who has struggled in the past to avoid playing in the harder to hit FSL.

And the rest is.....Keppinger can hit but lacks the range to be an all-star SS, but can play there and does pretty fair. Dorn is a masher and a solid prospect but can he hit well enough to start in a COF spot and will he hit LHP? Roenicke is a stud if he get's his command polished up a bit. Loo is a big question mark, however the fact he came up in discussions makes me wonder if he hasn't re-thought his options and may be on the road back. He can hit but may not be a SS probably a 3B. Valaika will be a 2B. Janish is maybe Adam Everett, maybe. Encarnacion isn't a likely person to be dealt due to a lack of a suitable replacement (Keppinger maybe could fill in). But Encarnacion has a knack for driving in runs and his defense is improving and he is a key RH bat for us (we are very LH heavy). Phillips may be the 3rd most untouchable in the entire organization behind only Bruce and Harang and just ahead of Dunn. Francisco has a chance but a slight one unless he changes his complete approach at the plate (swings at everything) and moves to another position or dramatically improves at 3rd (error machine). And Pelland (SP), Viola (RP), Wood (SP) and Maloney (SP) are all quality LH's with a good future who are not that far away. And Carlos Fisher is a solid sleeper starter who keeps the ball on the ground.

And my guess is if we can make a deal it will likely be:

Bailey or Cueto

Hamilton or Votto

Stubbs

Pelland (LHRP)

for Bedard and Bradford

If it were me (Just because I love Hamilton's potential)

It would be Cueto, Votto, Dorn and Lutz (who I admittedly only know little about, except that many I respect seem to like him almost as much as Roenicke). But I would be content with Bailey or Hamilton going as I wanna win ultimately and Bedard is a big step in the right direction. I might be inclined to raise that offer a tad if Bedard was willing to sign a LTC before the deal, but I think we all know that won't happen which is driving his price down. Nobody wants to deal a potential ready superstar for a guy who is gonna walk in 2 years, but we have went out on the ledge offering what we have offered.[/quote']

Welcome! It's always nice to hear insight from other fans.

Are there any starters (other than Bedard) that the Reds are targeting right now? Thanks in advance.