Note to Boras---Wieters rated the 9th worst "framing"-

[zweem]

bssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24280722/leaderboarding-the-best-catchers-at-framing-pitches-in-2013

Now that he has been outed as such----how about a nice home-team discount. Kind of explains why our pitchers can't put batters away.

[Can_of_corn]

bssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24280722/leaderboarding-the-best-catchers-at-framing-pitches-in-2013

Now that he has been outed as such----how about a nice home-team discount. Kind of explains why our pitchers can't put batters away.

The link is broke.

How about this one: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15093

It isn't whatever dude you are looking at, but it is Mike Fast who first thought to quantify pitch framing.

It has Wieters as slightly positive from 2007-2011.

Of course Mike didn't have guys coming in at +30 runs a season from framing.

I question the methodology of anyone that gets huge numbers from framing.

[CA-ORIOLE]

The link is broke.

How about this one: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15093

It isn't whatever dude you are looking at, but it is Mike Fast who first thought to quantify pitch framing.

It has Wieters as slightly positive from 2007-2011.

Of course Mike didn't have guys coming in at +30 runs a season from framing.

I question the methodology of anyone that gets huge numbers from framing.

It's fine to question things, but if some players consistently get good numbers (by multiple methods, not just Fast's) and others don't, there is probably something to it.

[Can_of_corn]

It's fine to question things, but if some players consistently get good numbers (by multiple methods, not just Fast's) and others don't, there is probably something to it.

I agree that there is "something to it".

I don't think Molina saved 50 runs in 709.2 innings in 2012.

One would think that the Rays' pitching would be significantly better with him behind the plate if he did.

[waroriole]

The link is broke.

How about this one: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15093

It isn't whatever dude you are looking at, but it is Mike Fast who first thought to quantify pitch framing.

It has Wieters as slightly positive from 2007-2011.

Of course Mike didn't have guys coming in at +30 runs a season from framing.

I question the methodology of anyone that gets huge numbers from framing.

Agreed. It puts framing as probably the most important skill in baseball.

[mdbdotcom]

bssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24280722/leaderboarding-the-best-catchers-at-framing-pitches-in-2013

Now that he has been outed as such----how about a nice home-team discount. Kind of explains why our pitchers can't put batters away.

Just think... all you had to do was copy his name from the article and you'd have spelled it correctly. Rave on!

[CA-ORIOLE]

I agree that there is "something to it".

I don't think Molina saved 50 runs in 709.2 innings in 2012.

One would think that the Rays' pitching would be significantly better with him behind the plate if he did.

Probably not, but who is to say. it's probably more like fielding metrics. If a guy shows 30 runs saved in a season, that really shouldn't be taken to mean that he literally saved 30 runs that year. Averaging several years likely gets you closer to the truth.

[Can_of_corn]

Just think... all you had to do was copy his name from the article and you'd have spelled it correctly. Rave on!

I wish I could get to the article. I am perfectly willing to accept that Matt had a terrible year pitch framing but I would like to see the evidence.

[Stotle]

I agree that there is "something to it".

I don't think Molina saved 50 runs in 709.2 innings in 2012.

One would think that the Rays' pitching would be significantly better with him behind the plate if he did.

The issue is that there is overlap between framing runs and runs prevented as attributable to the pitcher, right? 50 runs doesn't really seem that high to me when you spread out the impact across five starters and the pen.

In other words, if you told me the best framing catcher in the game can add between .5 and .8 WAR to his starters and another .2 to .4 WAR per reliever across the late innings, that wouldn't seem crazy to me.

Keep in mind, also, that catchers like McCann can score very well as framers, but be detriments when it comes to holding down the running game, passed balls, whatever, not to mention the offensive side of things. So the net gain may not be great.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Agreed. It puts framing as probably the most important skill in baseball.

A few calls one way or the other can literally determine the course of a game. if it's true that it can be broken down to a skill instead of luck/randomness, it very well may be.

[Stotle]

I wish I could get to the article. I am perfectly willing to accept that Matt had a terrible year pitch framing but I would like to see the evidence.

Matt's size does not help him in this department.

[mdbdotcom]

I wish I could get to the article. I am perfectly willing to accept that Matt had a terrible year pitch framing but I would like to see the evidence.

Here you go.

[luismatos4prez]

Matt's size does not help him in this department.

I was wondering if his height affected his framing, but couldn't think of why it would. Can you explain?

[Can_of_corn]

Probably not, but who is to say. it's probably more like fielding metrics. If a guy shows 30 runs saved in a season, that really shouldn't be taken to mean that he literally saved 30 runs that year. Averaging several years likely gets you closer to the truth.

30 runs is over three wins a year from framing. If Molina could get a team three wins (not talking about the 5.26 wins in 80 games started in 2012) he would be getting rather larger contracts then the one he just signed for.

The problem with trying to quantify pitch framing is when to assign credit/blame to the catcher as opposed to another factor.

[Can_of_corn]

The issue is that there is overlap between framing runs and runs prevented as attributable to the pitcher, right? 50 runs doesn't really seem that high to me when you spread out the impact across five starters and the pen.

In other words, if you told me the best framing catcher in the game can add between .5 and .8 WAR to his starters and another .2 to .4 WAR per reliever across the late innings, that wouldn't seem crazy to me.

Keep in mind, also, that catchers like McCann can score very well as framers, but be detriments when it comes to holding down the running game, passed balls, whatever, not to mention the offensive side of things. So the net gain may not be great.

In 80 starts? 709 innings? That doesn't seem extreme?

Of course I have also read that the Rays' pitchers' OPS against was pretty stable in 2012 regardless of who was catching. If Framing has that significant an impact wouldn't it be reflected in things like OPS against?