Camden Depot's Shepherd: Failed Physicals and Testing the Orioles' Success

[SteveO]

You obviously believe that the Orioles negotiated in bad faith with Balfour if you in fact believe that PA and the Orioles are using the HIPPa laws as a shielding tactic. Like yourself, Frank Wren can pop off all whe wants, but as Number 5 post points out, his incompetence helped put the Orioles in this position. Perhaps he should take some ownership of his past mistakes. No he'd rather pile on his former employers through the press.

Despite the team's improvement the past two years, you are a dissatisfied customer. IMO, Orioles fans have had a good bit to cheer about the past two seasons. Any financial sacrifices that you made regarding the Orioles are pretty much on you. You are correct, it's not a big deal to me because it's not my business to tell you how to spend your money. However, if his miserly and lying ways have been so consistent during this regime, why are you so disappointed, angry, and most curiously betrayed? In my earlier post, I acknowledged some of the regimes shortcomings ( 14 straight losing seasons, failure to allocate $ to players salary's, etc.) However, I think that the Orioles made a legitimate run at Balfour and that they made the best business and baseball decision for the club. Further, there is still time to add some other pieces to the team. The off season is not over.

Once again, the man and the orioles can't win. Even if passing on Balfour turns out to be the right decision, because of the past the guy is a miserly old liar. I submit that the Orioles have a track record of being extremely cautious when it comes to signing free agent pitchers. You have the right not to believe PA, but I have every right to give the organization the benefit of the doubt especially in this case.

We can agree to disagree.

You gloss over his history as if its inconsequential. This man ran Gillick out of town cause he knew better, but ya he would never interfere with DD signing a guy with a history of shoulder issues by dusting off an old tactic he has used in the past....Nah...Pete would never do that. Its far more likely that Balfours docs and the docs of whatever team sign him would lie just to make the Orioles look bad. Its k. Like I said we just have to agree to disagree.

I think if Pete has had no issue blindsiding Pat Gillick then blindsiding DD is kids play. If you think that makes me a bad fan for feeeling that way based on his observable history...good for you.

[El Gordo]

Of course it was sour grapes. On top of that, it was flat-out false. Angelos did not step in to nix Wren's deals for medical before they were final. Angelos began doing that AFTER Wren. Wren spent a lot of money, and failed miserably. We have him to that for Angelos' meddling, pinching pennies, and having a very stringent physical examination policy. My point is that Wren, of all people, had absolutely no business saying anything regarding the medical issues and did not have that experience himself. Wren's Hernadez mistake is the main cause for the Orioles' stringent medical policies.

I was ticked at Angelos at the time over Jon Miller and Davey Johnson, and remain ticked about how he mishandled those men, but Angelos had not intervened in medical issues at that time, and had actually shown a willingness to spend money. We were among the top payrolls in MLB.

For you to call me disingenuous and convenient (what?!) is totally uncalled-for, as well as false. Wren is being disingenuous. You are citing what Wren said, without bothering to see if Wren had himself experienced the medical issue, and using the present Balfour circumstance. You are the one taking advantage of a convenience here, not me.

How do you know whether PA meddled with the medicals or no? Were you privy to FO interactions at that time?

[mdbdotcom]

How do you know whether PA meddled with the medicals or no? Were you privy to FO interactions at that time?

Might one not assume that if Hernandez weren't hurt he would have pitched again?

[El Gordo]

You obviously believe that the Orioles negotiated in bad faith with Balfour if you in fact believe that PA and the Orioles are using the HIPPa laws as a shielding tactic. Like yourself, Frank Wren can pop off all whe wants, but as Number 5 post points out, his incompetence helped put the Orioles in this position. Perhaps he should take some ownership of his past mistakes. No he'd rather pile on his former employers through the press.

Despite the team's improvement the past two years, you are a dissatisfied customer. IMO, Orioles fans have had a good bit to cheer about the past two seasons. Any financial sacrifices that you made regarding the Orioles are pretty much on you. You are correct, it's not a big deal to me because it's not my business to tell you how to spend your money. However, if his miserly and lying ways have been so consistent during this regime, why are you so disappointed, angry, and most curiously betrayed? In my earlier post, I acknowledged some of the regimes shortcomings ( 14 straight losing seasons, failure to allocate $ to players salary's, etc.) However, I think that the Orioles made a legitimate run at Balfour and that they made the best business and baseball decision for the club. Further, there is still time to add some other pieces to the team. The off season is not over.

Once again, the man and the orioles can't win. Even if passing on Balfour turns out to be the right decision, because of the past the guy is a miserly old liar. I submit that the Orioles have a track record of being extremely cautious when it comes to signing free agent pitchers. You have the right not to believe PA, but I have every right to give the organization the benefit of the doubt especially in this case.

I think you need to distinguish between the organization and PA. DD and the organization were satisfied to give Balfour 2 years IMO, and PA was not

[El Gordo]

Might one not assume that if Hernandez weren't hurt he would have pitched again?

Not speaking about Hernandez, just asking how we know when and to what degree PA started meddling with the management of things besides the reports from the people who were there.

[russ snyder]

We can agree to disagree.

You gloss over his history as if its inconsequential. This man ran Gillick out of town cause he knew better, but ya he would never interfere with DD signing a guy with a history of shoulder issues by dusting off an old tactic he has used in the past....Nah...Pete would never do that. Its far more likely that Balfours docs and the docs of whatever team sign him would lie just to make the Orioles look bad. Its k. Like I said we just have to agree to disagree.

I think if Pete has had no issue blindsiding Pat Gillick then blindsiding DD is kids play. If you think that makes me a bad fan for feeeling that way based on his observable history...good for you.

We obviously disagree.

I not glossing over anything. I only asked why you are feel so disappointed, angry, and betrayed for so long by PA and the Orioles. You did not give me an answer because you only want to rant about what a miser and a liar he is. This is pretty much your MO because this was the same response when you gave me a "dose of reality."

You keep bring up the past, now it's how PA blindsided Gillick. Where did I say anywhere that Balfour , his doctors, or another teams doctors, were out to make the Orioles look bad? Please don't twist my words because you don't agree with my position.

Lastly, I never said that you were a bad fan. I did point out that you were a "dissatisfied" fan.

You can site any history you'd like. Observable history does not provide any clear cut proof that the Orioles that the Orioles negotiated in bad faith with Balfour.

As I stated earlier, I hope Balfour files a grievance and tries to prove bad faith or damages.

Until then, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[russ snyder]

I think you need to distinguish between the organization and PA. DD and the organization were satisfied to give Balfour 2 years IMO, and PA was not

To clarify, I believe that the Orioles (including PA & DD) altered their initial offer to Balfour based on the medical reports.

The bolded is your opinion. You do not know for a fact that PA was alone in this thinking.

[SteveO]

We obviously disagree.

I not glossing over anything. I only asked why you are feel so disappointed, angry, and betrayed for so long by PA and the Orioles. You did not give me an answer because you only want to rant about what a miser and a liar he is. This is pretty much your MO because this was the same response when you gave me a "dose of reality."

You keep bring up the past, now it's how PA blindsided Gillick. Where did I say anywhere that Balfour , his doctors, or another teams doctors, were out to make the Orioles look bad? Please don't twist my words because you don't agree with my position.

Lastly, I never said that you were a bad fan. I did point out that you were a "dissatisfied" fan.

You can site any history you'd like. Observable history does not provide any clear cut proof that the Orioles that the Orioles negotiated in bad faith with Balfour.

As I stated earlier, I hope Balfour files a grievance and tries to prove bad faith or damages.

Until then, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Well if your read my other posts you would clearly read I said I still spent money on season tickets because I love baseball, my family loves it and I loved the Orioles long before Peter Angelos had an inkling of buying the team. I took what Pete said in the past about not interfering, about spending to improve the team and being serious about contending at face value and chose to suspend my disbelief.

Explain to me how the fact that Pete himself has clearly said not just once but multiple times that when we have a team that is ready to compete we would "absolutely" go out and get those things we need to take it to the next level. Now if you think Webb and Lough qualify as those things we need to compete...well then we again we will have to just disagree. I am not demanding Choo, Ellsbury, Hamilton (last year) Garza blah blah blah. I am asking for proven, reliable commodities that are meaningful upgrades were we need them.

Explain to me how what we have done to date this winter even remotely resembles what the man promised us fans. Does that matter? Should that not factor into whether I choose to believe him now regarding Balfour? If someone consistently lies to you do you not have a tough time believing anything they say. Is that really so unreasonable?

Explain to me how Pete is a credible and honest guy in your opinion? Please do that

[mdbdotcom]

Not speaking about Hernandez, just asking how we know when and to what degree PA started meddling with the management of things besides the reports from the people who were there.

You asked specifically about him interfering with the medicals. Since the agreements didn't stipulate "pending physical," don't you think others would have done what Hernandez did if their agreements had been nixed by the O's due to the physical?

[SteveO]

We obviously disagree.

I not glossing over anything. I only asked why you are feel so disappointed, angry, and betrayed for so long by PA and the Orioles. You did not give me an answer because you only want to rant about what a miser and a liar he is. This is pretty much your MO because this was the same response when you gave me a "dose of reality."

You keep bring up the past, now it's how PA blindsided Gillick. Where did I say anywhere that Balfour , his doctors, or another teams doctors, were out to make the Orioles look bad? Please don't twist my words because you don't agree with my position.

Lastly, I never said that you were a bad fan. I did point out that you were a "dissatisfied" fan.

You can site any history you'd like. Observable history does not provide any clear cut proof that the Orioles that the Orioles negotiated in bad faith with Balfour.

As I stated earlier, I hope Balfour files a grievance and tries to prove bad faith or damages.

Until then, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Let me just add that none of us have had the opportunity to judge if Pete would live up to that add to compete promise until last winter and this one. So far he has utterly failed to live up to that promise and it means something to me. Maybe he does surprise us yet and if he does I will man up and admit he kept his word in the end. This winter looks very similar to last winter were we did nothing to capitalize on our position.

[SteveO]

[/b]

To clarify, I believe that the Orioles (including PA & DD) altered their initial offer to Balfour based on the medical reports.

The bolded is your opinion. You do not know for a fact that PA was alone in this thinking.

And the bolded is your opinion. You have no more idea than anyone else on here if Pete had any hand in this. Nobody is purporting to know definitively what happened. Only Pete, DD, Balfour and his Agent know that

[El Gordo]

[/b]

To clarify, I believe that the Orioles (including PA & DD) altered their initial offer to Balfour based on the medical reports.

The bolded is your opinion. You do not know for a fact that PA was alone in this thinking.

How did you guess? Well if DD was on the same page as PA, he never would have made a two year offer to begin with, let alone agreed to it. Obviously what medical info DD had was sufficient in his opinion to justify a two year deal. Then something or some one changed his mind. Who do you suppose that might have been.

[mdbdotcom]

How did you guess? Well if DD was on the same page as PA, he never would have made a two year offer to begin with, let alone agreed to it. Obviously what medical info DD had was sufficient in his opinion to justify a two year deal. Then something or some one changed his mind. Who do you suppose that might have been.

The three doctors who reviewed the examination.

[El Gordo]

The three doctors who reviewed the examination.

Do you know what they said? The problem with this is that I accept Balfour's doctors' opinion that there was no significant difference between Balfour's prior MRI's and the current one. The difference is in interpretation of them. I don't believe DD agreed to a two year deal without having seen Balfour's prior medicals. Since there was no significant difference in what they showed, then DD's judgment as to what they meant was different than PA's

[Frobby]

Observable history does not provide any clear cut proof that the Orioles that the Orioles negotiated in bad faith with Balfour.

Agreed. I have ho problem with anyone who strongly suspects that Angelos interfered in the Balfour matter based on past history. I just have a problem with those who are stating it as a fact, as opposed to a belief or a suspicion.