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Mussina is significantly better than Glavine


Luper2207

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Ugly girlfriend logic.[/quote

Not sure what this means.

I'm not sure if it's because I'm old or because all of my girlfriends were hot. :)

Scout Artie: I like Perez. He's got a classy swing, it's a real clean stroke.

Scout Barry: He can't hit the curve ball.

Scout Artie: Yeah, there's some work to be done, I'll admit that.

Scout Barry: Yeah, there is.

Scout Artie: But he's noticeable.

Matt Keough: And an ugly girlfriend.

Scout Barry: What does that mean?

Matt Keough: Ugly girl friend means no confidence.

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I think the point of this whole thread is that if Glavine is considered one of the best of the era, then Mussina should be too. Most of the statistical analysis supports that Mussina was actually better.

I think that was the point of the OP, but my point has been and continues to be that statistics are not the only deciding factor, and shouldn't be.

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Mussina, except for maybe one or two years, was always, to me, in the second tier of really good pitchers in the American League. I'm not sure that means he doesn't deserve to be in the hall though. There are certainly MANY pitchers in the hall that were not among the very best of the best.

You say that he's in the 2nd tier of AL pitchers, meaning that there is a whole tier of players above him in the AL (not to mention the NL pitchers that you aren't considering in this statement). As I said before, the HOF is for the best of the best of all MLB players...not 2nd tier in just the AL.

That's one mistake that alot of people make with the HOF in my opinion. Just because one player got in with lesser stats/awards/etc., doesn't automatically lower the bar for future players. You can't equally compare players from different generations/eras when determining entry into the HOF, it's how they stacked up against others in their era. If they dominate their era, then you can start comparing to other generations of HOF members, but not before.

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Given the "stuff" and number of great pitches Mussina had, there is a legitimate question as to why his numbers weren't actually better. His best season may have been his first full season....1992. I remember watching him pitch and always wondering how he doesn't win 20 games every year. Part of it was obviously the competition of the AL East, and another part of it was perhaps not having one completely dominant out-pitch.

It also seemed like with Mussina that he was always in the second-tier (as someone else said). He never had that one dominant season, or one dominant postseason that led to a title. He could not crack the top tier of Maddux, Unit, Pedro, etc. The guy had how many no-hitters or perfect games broken up in some painful 9th inning fashion....I remember for sure the Sandy Alomar one in 1997 and the Carl Crawford one for NY when he was a single strike away.

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Scout Artie: I like Perez. He's got a classy swing, it's a real clean stroke.

Scout Barry: He can't hit the curve ball.

Scout Artie: Yeah, there's some work to be done, I'll admit that.

Scout Barry: Yeah, there is.

Scout Artie: But he's noticeable.

Matt Keough: And an ugly girlfriend.

Scout Barry: What does that mean?

Matt Keough: Ugly girl friend means no confidence.

Gotcha.

Hey, I guess I had more confidence than I thought. :)

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That is fine. Just seems a bit close minded especially with the numbers put in front of you in this thread. Mussina is a HOF caliber pitcher.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am sorry for being rude. To be honest I don't like the man. But he will probably

be in the Hall of Fame. Again I am sorry for being rude.

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Maddux says he owes his enshrinement to Rick Kranitz, for teaching him his changeup.

Everyone time my dad and I talk about Buck he says the same thing. Paraphrasing here "I love Buck, but why in the world did he let Kranitz walk. That was a big mistake."

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Given the "stuff" and number of great pitches Mussina had, there is a legitimate question as to why his numbers weren't actually better. His best season may have been his first full season....1992. I remember watching him pitch and always wondering how he doesn't win 20 games every year. Part of it was obviously the competition of the AL East, and another part of it was perhaps not having one completely dominant out-pitch.

It also seemed like with Mussina that he was always in the second-tier (as someone else said). He never had that one dominant season, or one dominant postseason that led to a title. He could not crack the top tier of Maddux, Unit, Pedro, etc. The guy had how many no-hitters or perfect games broken up in some painful 9th inning fashion....I remember for sure the Sandy Alomar one in 1997 and the Carl Crawford one for NY when he was a single strike away.

He had 16 wins in 1994 in mid August when the strike happened, so that wiped out a potential 20 win season. 1995 they didn't start playing until April 26, and he finished with 19 wins, so that almost surely cost him 20 wins, and we've already gone over 1996 and how that ended. So there's three potential 20 wins seasons out the window, which would have given at least 4 by the end of this career, and given the accomplishment counters more to chew on and hold up.

As to the out pitch thing, I think that knuckle curve was a darn good pitch and he threw it better than anyone. People bring up the near misses as a strike against him (not saying you are), but I actually think that's proof of exactly how good he was. There's only one Nolan Ryan, who threw so many no hitters, and there's a reason it's only been done so many times in recorded baseball history. I find it far more impressive that Mussina was in that position to do it so many times more so than some view it as an indictment that he didn't do it.

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Kind of like Dave Stieb and his ridiculous consecutive blown no-hitters with two outs in the 9th (one of which on an absolutely ridiculous infield bounce). He finally did get that no-hitter though.

Very good points about 1994 - 1995. And I agree with you about being so close to the no-nos and perfection as a testament to his ability. I just wish for him that the one big moment happened at some point. In 1997, he completely shut down two teams in the playoffs that had ridiculous offensive talent and beat the Unit twice. But we never got far enough in the playoffs to make it memorable to anyone other than Os fans.

He won 20 games in his last season, the Yankees won the World Series in the years that perfectly book-ended his NY career, the no-hitters/perfect game lost, etc. Always on the doorstep....

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Kind of like Dave Stieb and his ridiculous consecutive blown no-hitters with two outs in the 9th (one of which on an absolutely ridiculous infield bounce). He finally did get that no-hitter though.

Very good points about 1994 - 1995. And I agree with you about being so close to the no-nos and perfection as a testament to his ability. I just wish for him that the one big moment happened at some point. In 1997, he completely shut down two teams in the playoffs that had ridiculous offensive talent and beat the Unit twice. But we never got far enough in the playoffs to make it memorable to anyone other than Os fans.

He won 20 games in his last season, the Yankees won the World Series in the years that perfectly book-ended his NY career, the no-hitters/perfect game lost, etc. Always on the doorstep....

When I was in second grade, Dave Hampton had 1,002 yards to become the first Falcon in their brief (at that time) franchise history ....... until he was tackled for a 7-yard loss late in the 4th quarter, and finished with 995 yards. :eek:

The following season (1973), Hampton finished with 997 yards. :rolleyes:

But like Steib, Hampton eventually got his 1,000-yard season in 1975 ....... but just barely, at 1,002.

O

[video=youtube;u4EGHsCB8og]

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You say that he's in the 2nd tier of AL pitchers, meaning that there is a whole tier of players above him in the AL (not to mention the NL pitchers that you aren't considering in this statement). As I said before, the HOF is for the best of the best of all MLB players...not 2nd tier in just the AL.

That's one mistake that alot of people make with the HOF in my opinion. Just because one player got in with lesser stats/awards/etc., doesn't automatically lower the bar for future players. You can't equally compare players from different generations/eras when determining entry into the HOF, it's how they stacked up against others in their era. If they dominate their era, then you can start comparing to other generations of HOF members, but not before.

No, no. I meant to me Mussina was in the second tier of the best pitchers in the AL. Pedro et al. was the first tier and Mussina was in the second. Sorry for the confusion. And I think Glavine was pretty similar in the NL to a large extent, but to me Glavine was just more "extraordinary". I just could never figure out how he was so damn good. And I wasn't comparing stats among eras, I was splitting hairs about the top of the very best versus the bottom of the very best within eras.

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p.s. The writers and MLB would be really stupid to make voting for the hall anything like a straight mathematical formula. The current and similar systems generate a ton of media and fan attention. It can be frustrating, but it is much more interesting and entertaining from the standpoint of generating media converge, social media coverage, etc.

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