Question about approach and process.

[Can_of_corn]

Overrated? No. Just because OBP is important doesn't mean that you can't win by emphasizing other areas. You could, at least in theory, win 100 games with a team that's last in the league in OBP. As Can_of_corn says, OBP is expensive. It's something everyone is going all-in for. When you have half or a third of the resources of some other teams you probably need to punt on OBP (mostly) and do other things to get ahead.

Of course the O's are also punting on strikeouts (except for the draft) which makes things more difficult.

[weams]

His answer rubbed me the wrong way too. They had first hand evidence of what can happen when a guy improves his discipline one way or another. Davis went from good to great, essentially just by laying off more pitches he couldn't handle. The idea that Adam Jones would somehow be worse by swinging at less terrible pitches is absurd. I understand it is unlikely, but the attitude they give off is that they don't seem to see it as a weakness in the first place.

Davis went from "minor league star/major league bust" to great. Adam is our highly paid superstar. A difference.

[weams]

Of course the O's are also punting on strikeouts (except for the draft) which makes things more difficult.

Strikeouts are expensive too.

[DrungoHazewood]

Davis MiL numbers gave no indication he's have poor plate discipline. Just the opposite. Six seasons total: .318 .375 .597 .971 1078.

I don't think you can infer good plate discipline from a guy who was facing AAA talent and hitting .330 with power, yet walking in less than 10% of PAs. Davis (no hyperbole here), on his 3rd trip around the hitter-friendly PCL, walked 37 times in 444 PAs. He was 38th in the PCL in walks in 2010. That translates to just what his MLB numbers are/were.

[Can_of_corn]

His answer rubbed me the wrong way too. They had first hand evidence of what can happen when a guy improves his discipline one way or another. Davis went from good to great, essentially just by laying off more pitches he couldn't handle. The idea that Adam Jones would somehow be worse by swinging at less terrible pitches is absurd. I understand it is unlikely, but the attitude they give off is that they don't seem to see it as a weakness in the first place.

And he closed some holes.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/chris-davis-is-hitting-everything/

[Babypowder]

Davis went from "minor league star/major league bust" to great. Adam is our highly paid superstar. A difference.

I'm talking about the difference in Davis between 2012 and 2013. Davis was not a fringe player in 2012. I don't see why that matters anyway. Are you suggesting Adam Jones is so good it is impossible for him to improve? Davis made significant improvements in plate discipline and his offensive game completely changed. The Orioles staff knows this, yet they continue to act like Jones has no flaws and a similar adjustment wouldn't be worth any effort to attempt. The staff's comments and some of Jones' own comments seem to suggest that no one sees it as an issue at all. Privately I hope they do.

[Frobby]

I'd not mess with Jones too much if I were Jim Presley. I think both he and Buck think that you need to hit until you take.

I understand this, but in some cases, it seems more like they hit until they miss. Somehow, teams like the Red Sox manage to take more pitches and still hit the ball with authority.

[Babypowder]

And he closed some holes.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/chris-davis-is-hitting-everything/

Right. He still dropped his swing percentage by 4 percent and his outside the zone percentage by 4 percent as well. That's significant. I don't understand how the Orioles can see what happened to Davis in 2013 and then make comments that suggest trying to make adjustments to Jones' approach has no potential for benefits. Both Jones and the Orioles seem to have this attitude about it like Jones is already one of the elite hitters in the league and can't be improved. Privately, I would hope that isn't true.

[Babypowder]

I understand this, but in some cases, it seems more like they hit until they miss. Somehow, teams like the Red Sox manage to take more pitches and still hit the ball with authority.

Right. People are taking that "hit until you take" for something it isn't. Buck knows that you can be selective and still be a good hitter. Those guys take that approach too. Joey Votto doesn't go to the plate looking for a walk. He goes up there to hit, but he goes up there to hit what he wants to hit. He's not going to chase whatever slop is rolled up there. Some here are taking that quote to mean that there is no other approach than the Orioles current strategy of swinging at anything you can reach.

[Stotle]

Some teams scout OBP as a skill. It's a separate box on their reports along with the hit tool. Similar to some orgs grading out raw power and playable power.

The Red Sox very much try to build their 25 man around players whose natural approach to hitting is to work counts, work for hitters' pitches, grind, etc. It's preached, but the guys who the Red Sox have/bring in tend to be the guys that enjoy sitting around and picking apart a pitcher's repertoire, how to attack them, what pitches to look for, etc.

[Frobby]

Some teams scout OBP as a skill. It's a separate box on their reports along with the hit tool. Similar to some orgs grading out raw power and playable power.

The Red Sox very much try to build their 25 man around players whose natural approach to hitting is to work counts, work for hitters' pitches, grind, etc. It's preached, but the guys who the Red Sox have/bring in tend to be the guys that enjoy sitting around and picking apart a pitcher's repertoire, how to attack them, what pitches to look for, etc.

I have no doubt about this. It's something they scout, develop and encourage at every level. The Yankees do too. Great example: BRob, who may be well past his prime, but still gives you a good at bat almost every time, so the Yankees go get him and probably tell him just to keep doing what he does best.

I really feel like this is one of those things that has significant cumulative effect, i.e., the impact of having 9 patient guys is greater than 9 times the impact of having one patient guy, if you get what I mean. It's just draining for a pitcher when every single hitter is making him work.

[El Gordo]

I don't think you can infer good plate discipline from a guy who was facing AAA talent and hitting .330 with power, yet walking in less than 10% of PAs. Davis (no hyperbole here), on his 3rd trip around the hitter-friendly PCL, walked 37 times in 444 PAs. He was 38th in the PCL in walks in 2010. That translates to just what his MLB numbers are/were.

Wouldn't his walk rate be effected by the fact that he was also getting a lot of hits, especially HR per PA. Does it matterhow someone gets on base as long as he does. This OBP obsession would take a guy like Ichiro who hit his way to a high OBP and dismiss him because his BB% was too low. I think Presley's point, which seems so difficult for some to grasp, is you can't look at these things in isolation. One reason that OBP is so expensive is that it rarely comes without a high SLG attached. If you tried to make Jones or Davis walk more they might improve some, but would the change in approach be worth the loss of power? The ironic thing about Davis' improved BB% is that the changes in his swing, bat, and stance were designed to increase his ability to make more frequent solid contact, and this more hits, especially HR. His BB% went up not because he was laying off more pitches but because pitchers were throwing him fewer pitches in his zone.

[Outlander]

Great responses from all sides. One of the things that draws me to a community like this is to try to learn more things about the game I love. I'm a novice with analytics, but I really enjoy getting peoples thoughts on theses topics. It is frustrating to have the feeling that players don't totally understand how valuable being patient is. But that's what analysts are for I suppose.

[Can_of_corn]

Great responses from all sides. One of the things that draws me to a community like this is to try to learn more things about the game I love. I'm a novice with analytics, but I really enjoy getting peoples thoughts on theses topics. It is frustrating to have the feeling that players don't totally understand how valuable being patient is. But that's what analysts are for I suppose.

With Jones I saw some stats that show the longer in the count he goes, the worse the eventual outcome. Even when ahead in the count, if it is a prolonged at bat, Jones doesn't do as well as an at bat resolved more quickly.

Now telling a player with that trend to be more patient seems counterproductive.

(if of course you believe that trend will continue)

[El Gordo]

Great responses from all sides. One of the things that draws me to a community like this is to try to learn more things about the game I love. I'm a novice with analytics, but I really enjoy getting peoples thoughts on theses topics. It is frustrating to have the feeling that players don't totally understand how valuable being patient is. But that's what analysts are for I suppose.

It's silly to think that most pl,ayers don't. But not all players have the same skill sets. Being able to recognize pitches and lay off them or having the hand eye coordination to spoil pitchers pitches until you get the one you can hit, are skills that not everyone can develop. I think most players are smart enough to recognize their limitations and develop an approach that makes the most of their strengths. Certainly Adam Jones is one, IMO