Question about approach and process.

[weams]

You can be a middle of the order hitter and take walks and have a high OBP. There's tons of examples. Jones being more patient wouldn't necessarily make him trade in power. Davis nearly doubled his walk rate from 2012 to 2013. Did he morph into a Nick Markakis clone? That's the part of Presley's comment that I hated. He acts like you either hit or have plate discipline, and you have to choose one or the other.

Torii Hunter is a comp that has often been thrown out there for Adam. He walked 26 times last year.

[Ori-Al]

His answer rubbed me the wrong way too. They had first hand evidence of what can happen when a guy improves his discipline one way or another. Davis went from good to great, essentially just by laying off more pitches he couldn't handle. The idea that Adam Jones would somehow be worse by swinging at less terrible pitches is absurd. I understand it is unlikely, but the attitude they give off is that they don't seem to see it as a weakness in the first place.

There is a difference between aggressive in the strike zone, and just plain aggressive. To this point in his career, Jones has been the latter. He swings at the strikes, but he swings at far too many non-strikes.

[Babypowder]

Those examples are mostly guys who have been pitched around. Jones has not been that guy, and is not really one of those types of hitters. I know what you mean, but Chris Davis is a physical anomaly. Adam is great the way he is and may never be that hitter you wish he were. Presley seems to accept that he is real good this way.

You're right. He's good now, I just want him to be great. The tools are there for him to be great, but instead his discipline keeps him outside the best 50 hitters in the game. I don't think he understands how far it holds him back, and it doesn't appear the Orioles do either. Among players with 400 PAs in 2013, Jones was tied for 60th in wRC+ with James Loney and Jonathan Lucroy. Those guys were good hitters last year but I don't anyone was referring to them as elite.

[weams]

You're right. He's good now, I just want him to be great. The tools are there for him to be great, but instead his discipline keeps him outside the best 50 hitters in the game. I don't think he understands how far it holds him back, and it doesn't appear the Orioles do either. Among players with 400 PAs in 2013, Jones was tied for 60th in wRC+ with James Loney and Jonathan Lucroy. Those guys were good hitters last year but I don't anyone was referring to them as elite.

Do you think Adam, the Orioles, or most in baseball see it they way you do. Defining him by wRC+ ?

[El Gordo]

Hitting is SO much better.

You wouldn't think it to read some of the posts in this thread.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Do you think Adam, the Orioles, or most in baseball see it they way you do. Defining him by wRC+ ?

So, we shouldn't use stats to compare Orioles to other players? Or we shouldn't use stats that don't reflect as well as you'd like on Oriole players?

[El Gordo]

Paul O'Neil had a hitting theory. The HHBP theory(hard hit ball percentage)Simply put the guys who hit the ball hard most frequently, are the best hitters. I think he's right. That's why MCab is so good. He squares the ball up a lot.

[bpilktree]

Maybe approach is the problem but I am going to bet with the hitters we have we are gonna hit more then 64 homers this season which we are on pace to do and that all 64 of them will not be from Cruz.

[murph]

We are so fortunate to have such good baseball minds posting here. Thanks guys.

Thanks for pointing this out Weams! The combined intellectual baseball knowledge makes reading all these posts so enjoyable on this site.

[murph]

As for the specific case of the Orioles hitters versus the Red Sox hitters could it not just be that currently the Red Sox have a much better crew of hitters at taking pictures and also fouling them off?

I understand they have spent money and drafted and developed well could good luck of the draw also have something to do with this....

I just hope our team collectively starts smashing very soon in the pitching comes together.

[Herman]

The issue isn't necessarily that the team strikes out too much. The issue is that the team does a very poor job having good at bats, fouling off tough pitches and manufacturing runs. It's been that way for the last couple of years, particularly in the 2nd half of last year and so far this year. Until they learn to do those things, it's going to be very difficult for this team to take the next step, especially in the AL East.

[weams]

So, we shouldn't use stats to compare Orioles to other players? Or we shouldn't use stats that don't reflect as well as you'd like on Oriole players?

I think it is easy to find a stat to fit anyone's argument. And I do think that analytics are an important part of today's game. I think Adam Jones fares better is many other areas that are not referenced in that stat.

[weams]

Torii Hunter is a comp that has often been thrown out there for Adam. He walked 26 times last year.

http://eutawstreetreport.com/early-bright-spot-jones-plate-discipline-yes-really/

[Babypowder]

I think it is easy to find a stat to fit anyone's argument. And I do think that analytics are an important part of today's game. I think Adam Jones fares better is many other areas that are not referenced in that stat.

Feel free to elaborate. I'd like to know what you believe are the major shortcomings to wRC+ and what things Adam Jones does that don't show up there. If you prefer wOBA (I don't, since it doesn't adjust for parks), he was 44th. Still not an elite hitter. He's a good hitter, I'm not arguing that. I don't think there's a legitimate argument that he is great or elite.

[gpolee]

Ok, so forgive me in advance if this topic has been beat to death before my time. My question is about team approach, and it's correlation to coaching vs players. The Red Sox series was a perfect example of two different approaches. My question comes from a perception of mine. These teams with high obp, I.e., the Red Sox, have at bats like they get it. It's as if they know, and buy into the fact that obp is king. Now we can't just assume players think this way because we have seen in different tv programs that the players are the last to embrace the analytical movement.( outside of maybe hof, MVP voters) Sure, some players acknowledge you should wait for you pitch, but they don't always encompass the full value of walking/ taking pitches. So do the Red Sox just happen to get guys who can hit 240, but obp 350, or do they sell this message? It just seems like the os hitters all are the same. And this coincides with what we have heard from Jim Presley. Be aggressive, look to swing the bat. I know it is thought that coaching doesn't have a great affect on performance, but when I see a team that looks like they all " get it", against a team full of very talented guys who don't, it makes me wonder.

If you want to know what is king, check out Total Bases. That's where the BoSox blew the rest of the league away last year. Ask the Cardinals, A's, Angels and Rangers how they scored so many runs. Especially ask Chili Davis, who helped change the dynamics of Oakland's offense with an approach that mirrors Presley's.

On the flip side, ask the Dodgers, Nats & Giants why their offenses were ineffectual last year. They'll tell you, "because we couldn't move runners around the bases."