MASN: A Primer on Pitch Framing

[NCRaven]

It seems to me that this ignores the impact of the umpire, at least within this discussion. If an umpire calls a strike a ball, it may have nothing to do with the catcher or his ability to "frame" a pitch. The umpire simply made a bad call. We may be measuring the wrong thing and then attributing the result to the wrong person.

[Kalkan]

With regard to noise, that article linked in the MASN post has an r2 of 0.69 from one year to the next. That looks pretty repeatable to me. If there was a ton of noise, wouldn't we expect something like 0.03? Making the process better would improve that 0.69. As is, what is that on par with? Batting Average? Batting average is not great, but there is use in that statistic looking forward.

[Kalkan]

It seems to me that this ignores the impact of the umpire, at least within this discussion. If an umpire calls a strike a ball, it may have nothing to do with the catcher or his ability to "frame" a pitch. The umpire simply made a bad call. We may be measuring the wrong thing and then attributing the result to the wrong person.

Indeed, but the umpire umps a lot of games and a lot of different catchers. If there are skills to how an ump calls a pitch, this can be identified.

[Can_of_corn]

He sure did. He then said he had trouble getting picked up by anyone else because they wanted him to have another big find.

That guy who came up with pitch framing never released even the nuts and bolts of his college pitch handling system because that is worth a lot to a team.

The guys who do projection models keep it proprietary. These things have value and it makes sense to hold onto that value if you created it.

And what does that have to do with him sharing his earlier finds with the community at large?

Do you think he could have rode his one find to career employment if he had kept it to himself?

He discovered something significant, that find led him to getting employed. His lack of further advances in the field has led to him being employed by professional soccer.

[CA-ORIOLE]

How does the background noise make them worthless? Similar background noise amongst all catchers and the differences are highly repeatable. That repeatability indicates a skill.

Yeah, I'm with you. The fact they are repeatable is significant. Not only that, the skill correlates at with what I'm seeing visually imo. Interesting that Corn has taken the rhetoric from skeptical to worthless.

[Can_of_corn]

Yeah, I'm with you. The fact they are repeatable is significant. Not only that, the skill correlates at with what I'm seeing visually imo. Interesting that Corn has taken the rhetoric from skeptical to worthless.

Oh please, that is just rhetoric.

You should know be better then that by now.

[Kalkan]

And what does that have to do with him sharing his earlier finds with the community at large?

Do you think he could have rode his one find to career employment if he had kept it to himself?

He discovered something significant, that find led him to getting employed. His lack of further advances in the field has led to him being employed by professional soccer.

Eh, I cannot know what lies in his soul. He said it hurt him get other gigs.

I am not sure why it seems hard to believe that holding onto sensitive information makes sense. It is all the value these guys have.

[Kalkan]

Yeah, I'm with you. The fact they are repeatable is significant. Not only that, the skill correlates at with what I'm seeing visually imo. Interesting that Corn has taken the rhetoric from skeptical to worthless.

That really is the bright flashing light. Repeatability is what I look for. Sure, lots of factors play into that, but it really is not a hands up in the air kind of noise.

[Can_of_corn]

Eh, I cannot know what lies in his soul. He said it hurt him get other gigs.

I am not sure why it seems hard to believe that holding onto sensitive information makes sense. It is all the value these guys have.

No, the ability to make further advances has value.

[Kalkan]

No, the ability to make further advances has value.

I guess that is why everything in the world is open source and no one bothers to patent anything anymore.

[Can_of_corn]

I guess that is why everything in the world is open source and no one bothers to patent anything anymore.

Obviously once someone is working for a team then there is a need for the information to be proprietary.

Now you will agree that all teams have, at the very least, access to the same information of pitch framing that we do.

They will have had this information for several years now.

Why isn't the market reflecting this skill?

That is what really makes me think something is being missed.

[Kalkan]

Obviously once someone is working for a team then there is a need for the information to be proprietary.

Now you will agree that all teams have, at the very least, access to the same information of pitch framing that we do.

They will have had this information for several years now.

Why isn't the market reflecting this skill?

No, not all teams have the same information or methodology. Also, not all front offices value the numbers similarly.

They are using these things, so I imagine the market is adapting to this skill.

It took time for people to come around to OBP.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Oh please, that is just rhetoric.

You should know be better then that by now.

Sorry my friend. I quoted you exactly. You're an exceptional poster. Probably the best on the board imo but you tend to "lock in" on a select few areas.

[Can_of_corn]

Sorry my friend. I quoted you exactly. You're an exceptional poster. Probably the best on the board imo but you tend to "lock in" on a select few areas.

I know what I said, it was rhetoric. Of course I don't actually think the background noise completely invalidates the data. I was exaggerating for effect.

[Kalkan]

Corn,

I don't mean to derail the conversation, but you seem to have some interest in this topic and concern about it. Have you tried engaging in the guys who do this work in the public sphere?