MASN: A Primer on Pitch Framing

[CA-ORIOLE]

How do you determine who gets credit for the call? Why is that so difficult to comprehend? Umpire calls x % OZ pitches strikes. Pitcher gets y % OZ pitches called strikes. Catcher gets z % OZ pitches called strikes. How do you know which of those is a framed pitch? Emperors new clothes IMO.?

We already stated we do not know exactly and that it is probably proprietary information. (but we probably have a good idea of the method).

We know that they have:

1. A large sample size.

2. The pitchers track record.

3. The catchers track record

4. The umpires track record.

5. Precise data on all the pitches/sample.

6. Knowledge that certain catchers retain a statistical advantage over many years from different teams/different pitchers/pitching staffs etc.

What is so hard for you to understand why they can't gain meaningful data from that? Whether you agree about the precision or not.

[Number5]

Those Brewers teams sure get all the breaks, eh?

Salty and Laird scored poorly last year.

If there was team bias, again this would pretty easily show up in the database. Same is true with pitching staffs. With several years of data, events should be pretty easy to isolate.

Actually, Laird scored considerably better last year than he has previously, with the lone exception of 2011, when he was with - wait for it - the Cardinals. Your attempt at cherry-picking an example actually proves the point very well, thank you.

2007 with Rangers -31.0, 2008 with Rangers -26.7, 2009 with Tigers -30.4, 2010 with Tigers -12.8, 2011 with Cardinals -1.4, 2012 with Tigers -11.6, 2013 with Braves -8.3.

Those stats are as clear-cut as it gets.

Salty was mid-pack last year at -2.6, and ranked high with the Red Sox in 2012 at + 6.8. He was even higher with the Red Sox in 2011 at + 13.8. With the Rangers in 2010, he was -0.3. He was +1.1 in 2009 with the Rangers, and -7.8 in 2008 with the Rangers. With the Brave in 2007, Salty was +3.3.

Again, in Saltamachia's case, he has consistently scored higher with the Braves and Red Sox than when not with one of those teams, with last year being the lone outlier. And last year was still considerably better than his worst year in Texas.

Yeah, I'd say your cherry-picked cases support what I have said. Look harder. Maybe you will find one.

http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php

[Kalkan]

Actually, Laird scored considerably better last year than he has previously, with the lone exception of 2011, when he was with - wait for it - the Cardinals. Your attempt at cherry-picking an example actually proves the point very well, thank you.

2007 with Rangers -31.0, 2008 with Rangers -26.7, 2009 with Tigers -30.4, 2010 with Tigers -12.8, 2011 with Cardinals -1.4, 2012 with Tigers -11.6, 2013 with Braves -8.3.

Those stats are as clear-cut as it gets.

Salty was mid-pack last year at -2.6, and ranked high with the Red Sox in 2012 at + 6.8. He was even higher with the Red Sox in 2011 at + 13.8. With the Rangers in 2010, he was -0.3. He was +1.1 in 2009 with the Rangers, and -7.8 in 2008 with the Rangers. With the Brave in 2007, Salty was +3.3.

Again, in Saltamachia's case, he has consistently scored higher with the Braves and Red Sox than when not with one of those teams, with last year being the lone outlier. And last year was still considerably better than his worst year in Texas.

Yeah, I'd say your cherry-picked cases support what I have said. Look harder. Maybe you will find one.

http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php

Eh, they are not cherry picked if I was handed the teams to comment on.

I think we can all agree on two things: a couple incidences is not a study and that a database of information should be able to pull out any preferential treatment.

Preferential treatment would also be something teams would be interested in and would have MLB use in Ump evaluations.

[Can_of_corn]

Eh, they are not cherry picked if I was handed the teams to comment on.

I think we can all agree on two things: a couple incidences is not a study and that a database of information should be able to pull out any preferential treatment.

Preferential treatment would also be something teams would be interested in and would have MLB use in Ump evaluations.

Mr. Musial will let you know when you throw a strike.

[Kalkan]

I am not sure this discussion is really going anywhere except to the inevitable use of strawmen and references to Hitler.

[Number5]

Eh, they are not cherry picked if I was handed the teams to comment on.

I think we can all agree on two things: a couple incidences is not a study and that a database of information should be able to pull out any preferential treatment.

Preferential treatment would also be something teams would be interested in and would have MLB use in Ump evaluations.

The idea that those teams seem to get calls that other teams don't seem to get really isn't news, is it? If you haven't ever noticed this, I don't know what to say. I was frankly surprised at the degree to which the framing stats on your cherry-picked examples underscore what has always been obvious to the naked eye.

[Can_of_corn]

I am not sure this discussion is really going anywhere except to the inevitable use of strawmen and references to Hitler.

I enjoyed the discussion we had earlier.

I just wanted to use the quote about Musial, not many chances come up and it's a good one.

[Morgan423]

I can see people putting in an absolute ton of work to be able to track this. MLB will then introduce the automated strike zone one week after they finish, rendering their efforts the most worthless work done in the history of mankind.

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[Can_of_corn]

I can see people putting in an absolute ton of work to be able to track this. MLB will then introduce the automated strike zone one week after they finish, rendering their efforts the most worthless work done in the history of mankind.

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Pretty sure the Great Wall of China has that award sewn up.

[srock]

Who's calling balls and strikes likely is a variable as we'll. it would be interesting to show which umpires are most susceptible to framing and the type of pitch they get "framed" most often.

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[srock]

Pretty sure the Great Wall of China has that award sewn up.

Ha!

the Great Wall is a valuable wonder to build in Civilization. So it does have significant cultural value to this day

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[weams]

He asks the $100,000,000 question "How does one figure out how to measure how well a catcher frames pitches?" then he doesn't answer it.

http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php

[weams]

[weams]

Grantland

[weams]

I am not sure this discussion is really going anywhere except to the inevitable use of strawmen and references to Hitler.

How does pitch framing have anything to do with Fascist Fanatics of the 20th century for $600, Alex?