Go Duke!-beat Carolina

[ledzepp8]

Henderson himself said he was going to block the shot or foul him. There was intent to make contact with TH. No one is disputing that.

Well I'd say fouling someone is a little bit different than elbowing them in the face. The point is that he was being reckless, knew he was being reckless and didn't seem to worried about the consequences.

[Lucky Jim]

There's no "W" in reckless...

...especially for Duke this year.

[Sports Guy]

Well I'd say fouling someone is a little bit different than elbowing them in the face. The point is that he was being wreckless, knew he was being wreckless and didn't seem to worried about the consequences.

I don't agree it was reckless. He went up to do a basketball move and as he saw the ball coming out of TH's hand, he was bringing his arm down, turned his head and connected with his nose.

He was going at TH aggressively and there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

[ledzepp8]

There's no "W" in reckless...

...especially for Duke this year.

Haha, yeah I meant to do that so I could set you up for that joke. Yeah...that's the ticket.

[Dr. FLK]

I don't agree it was reckless. He went up to do a basketball move and as he saw the ball coming out of TH's hand, he was bringing his arm down, turned his head and connected with his nose.

He was going at TH aggressively and there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

It seems like the only people who see "absolutely no chance of intent" are Duke fans. He kind of flew at him, and he swung his elbow as he turned. I don't think he meant to hit in the nose. But, it sure looked like he was trying to commit a hard foul. When you intend to commit a hard foul, and you end up breaking the guy's nose, you deserve what you get. That's the problem with flying around "Recklessly"...it's a little hard to control the final outcome.

[Sports Guy]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2788363

[Sports Guy]

It seems like the only people who see "absolutely no chance of intent" are Duke fans. He kind of flew at him, and he swung his elbow as he turned. I don't think he meant to hit in the nose. But, it sure looked like he was trying to commit a hard foul. When you intend to commit a hard foul, and you end up breaking the guy's nose, you deserve what you get. That's the problem with flying around "Recklessly"...it's a little hard to control the final outcome.

Absolutely...But that doesn't mean he was malicious in his intent or that he should be suspended IMO.

[Dr. FLK]

Absolutely...But that doesn't mean he was malicious in his intent or that he should be suspended IMO.

When you intend to commit a hard foul, and you are so reckless that you end up breaking someone's nose, I have no problem with a suspension. And, Coach K's "we were mad they hadn't given up" comments, sure makes it sound like there was definitely intent for a "message" to be delivered. Regardless, it was irresponsible and dangerous, and there is no need for that on any ACC court. Want to send a real message? Then win the game.

[beaner]

Actually, the ball got stripped a little before i thought, so he still thought he was blocking the shot and turned away at the last second.

BTW, i notice Duke had alot of back ups in but so did UNC. It was pointless for K to bring that up and only makes him look bad.

Oh well, it is over with and its time to move on.

Well his nose is broken, so who knows if it's over...MAybe we'll get another shot in the tournament.

[Sports Guy]

When you intend to commit a hard foul, and you are so reckless that you end up breaking someone's nose, I have no problem with a suspension. And, Coach K's "we were mad they hadn't given up" comments, sure makes it sound like there was definitely intent for a "message" to be delivered. Regardless, it was irresponsible and dangerous, and there is no need for that on any ACC court. Want to send a real message? Then win the game.

Yardbirds brought up Chris Paul earlier in this thead....Speaking of when he purposely punch Hodge in his bits and pieces.

That was intent. That was malicious.

Hard fouls are made in almost every game at every level of basketball.

This was one, instead of a player falling hard to ground(which is usually what happens), the player happened to end up bloodied, so it made it worse but the intent of a hard foul is not a bad intent and to think otherwise means you basically think every team on every level is wrong.

[Hallas]

Yardbirds brought up Chris Paul earlier in this thead....Speaking of when he purposely punch Hodge in his bits and pieces.

That was intent. That was malicious.

Hard fouls are made in almost every game at every level of basketball.

This was one, instead of a player falling hard to ground(which is usually what happens), the player happened to end up bloodied, so it made it worse but the intent of a hard foul is not a bad intent and to think otherwise means you basically think every team on every level is wrong.

You're wrong here. A hard foul - on every level - is performed with an understanding of the risk. If you swing your elbows like that in the NBA and crack someone's nose open, you're going to get slapped with (at least) a flagrant-1. With the crackdown of late, you might even get a flagrant-2. Ask Karl Malone. As good as he was at hiding his floating elbows, how many flagrants and suspensions did he get for them?

In this situation, Henderson clearly made contact with either his elbow or his fist (I haven't seen the replay recently so I'm not exactly sure which hit.) Given the level of control that one has with his arms, and the force with which he hit Hansbrough, striking with these parts of the body generally implies intent, even if he was just going up for a block.

A decent analogy would be if you attack someone on the streets with the intent of sending a message. If you end up killing the person, even if by accident, you get manslaughter. If you just beat him up, you get assault/battery.

Maybe you disagree with judgement based on the end result, but it's really the only fair way to dole out punishment. And as I pointed out, it's not the first system that puts emphasis on the end result when determining severity.

[biggsy]

Yardbirds brought up Chris Paul earlier in this thead....Speaking of when he purposely punch Hodge in his bits and pieces.

That was intent. That was malicious.

Hard fouls are made in almost every game at every level of basketball.

This was one, instead of a player falling hard to ground(which is usually what happens), the player happened to end up bloodied, so it made it worse but the intent of a hard foul is not a bad intent and to think otherwise means you basically think every team on every level is wrong.

Yes, hard fouls are made in the course of a game, but they are "controlled" hard fouls. I'm 21 and I've played orgainized basketball for 15 years and I know they written and unwritten rules of basketball as well as anyone on this planet. There are a time for hard fouls and you can commit hard fouls without hurting someone. For example you can throw your body into someone going up for a lay-up and hack the hell out of their ARMS (not face) but catch them before they fall hard and break something trying to catch themselfs, or even just setting a couple of hard (possibly even moving) picks on the player and things of that sort. Throwing your arms wildly towards the face of another player is not a justified hard foul. Its just a dirty ignorent play and whoever does it deserves to be thrown out and as far as I'm concerend should be beat in the parking lot.

Hard fouls are made in the middle of a game where the other team is playing dirty or when your playing a finesse player that you know will not play as well if you foul him hard a couple of times, or at the end of a game when you cannot afford an easy and 1 type of lay-up.

However there are 15 seconds left, Duke is losing by double digits and UNC is not purposly trying to run up the score.... there is NO justification for a hard foul. There is not any good reason for Henderson to want commit a hard foul.

It was a pure frustration foul. His team was losing, TH had been dominating him and his fellow dukie big men all game and he lost his head for a play and it cost him.

Was he trying to hurt him, I don't think so, but he DID purposely foul him, and he was trying to make an extremely hard foul which had no justification behind it other then frustration.

If you lose your head and do something stupid end up hurting someone (even if you didn't mean to) then you deserve everything that happens to you. Personally, I feel a 1 game suspension is a good punishment, but I would have been a little harder on him, that was just a dirty play any way you look at it, with 15 seconds left in a double digit game there is no reason to even try to foul another player, let the points go and take your loss like a man, and being a man about something is obviously something Duke can't do and it starts with the example their coach lays out.

[Grady]

Was it Nelson or Henderson who elbowed Hansbrough in the nose,last year in the last game of the year?

[mweb]

Henderson himself said he was going to block the shot or foul him. There was intent to make contact with TH. No one is disputing that.

Yeah, and with how hard he was swinging his arm, that contact had a good chance of causing quite a bit of pain. That was not a natural way to block a shot imo, and considering the situation, the same situation that suggests TH shouldn't be in the game, Henderson should not being hard fouling anyone.

[mweb]

Absolutely...But that doesn't mean he was malicious in his intent or that he should be suspended IMO.

I don't think you can purposely commit a hard foul with 14 seconds left in a decided game without being malicious in his intent.