Roch: O's don't like Penn's attitude

[sevens]

Penn is young and needs to be reminded of the important issues of the day so far as O's management is concerned. Be more responsible Isn't that all the article really says?

It is hard to figure what the O's consider good behavior looking at their recent history with players. DUI,s Assault , etc !!! ( In all fairness as labeled earlier Fatty McGriddlecakes did commit about half of those infractions)

Bottom line for me is this

Penn is a much better option than Trachsel and probably even better than Wright. Did anyone point that out to the O's FO???? Somehow I think it got overlooked.

Did someone point that out to the O's FO ??? Oh I already said that sorry :002_sbiggrin:

[nadecir]

I imagine you have this wrong.

People probably said that you can afford to trade Maine because of guys like Penn, who was clearly the better prospect compared to Maine.

Also, you still cpntinue to overlook the fact that Maine hadn't been good for the Orioles in a while and that he is now thriving in a much better atmosphere for pitchers.

Maybe Penn was the better prospect in January of 2006 when Maine was traded.

But clearly John Maine was the better pitcher in 2006, even adjusted for park affects. Maine's ERA+ in 2006 was 120. Maine was much better than a league average pitcher in 2006.

Hayden Penn's ERA+ in 2006 was 30. Penn was the worst pitcher out of more than 700 pitchers in the major leagues in VORP last year. People keep pointing out Penn's small number of innings last year (20), and they point to this small sample size as a reason to not to judge his performance. But what they fail to point out a big reason why he pitched only 20 innings. He was pulled in the third inning or earlier in six of his seven starts. Hayden Penn could have easily doubled his innings if he wasn't getting shelled in most of his starts.

[Sports Guy]

Maybe Penn was the better prospect in January of 2006 when Maine was traded.

But clearly John Maine was the better pitcher in 2006, even adjusted for park affects. Maine's ERA+ in 2006 was 120. Maine was much better than a league average pitcher in 2006.

Hayden Penn's ERA+ in 2006 was 30. Penn was the worst pitcher out of more than 700 pitchers in the major leagues in VORP last year. People keep pointing out Penn's small number of innings last year (20), and they point to this small sample size as a reason to not to judge his performance. But what they fail to point out a big reason why he pitched only 20 innings. He was pulled in the third inning or earlier in six of his seven starts. Hayden Penn could have easily doubled his innings if he wasn't getting shelled in most of his starts.

Sample size.

[DrungoHazewood]

Maybe Penn was the better prospect in January of 2006 when Maine was traded.

But clearly John Maine was the better pitcher in 2006, even adjusted for park affects. Maine's ERA+ in 2006 was 120. Maine was much better than a league average pitcher in 2006.

Hayden Penn's ERA+ in 2006 was 30. Penn was the worst pitcher out of more than 700 pitchers in the major leagues in VORP last year. People keep pointing out Penn's small number of innings last year (20), and they point to this small sample size as a reason to not to judge his performance. But what they fail to point out a big reason why he pitched only 20 innings. He was pulled in the third inning or earlier in six of his seven starts. Hayden Penn could have easily doubled his innings if he wasn't getting shelled in most of his starts.

And what you're missing is that from 2004 until about the '06 All Star break Penn was absolutely the better prospect, putting up better numbers at a much younger age. Three months have altered things a bit, but it would be little surprise to anyone if Penn outpitched Maine again in 2007.

[nadecir]

Sample size.

Did you read my post? Penn could have had a reasonable sample size in innings pitched if wasn't getting shelled in all but one of his starts. He only made it out of the third inning once. Penn was just a horrible pitcher in 2006. He needs to pitch a lot better in 2007 to be an effective major league starter.

[nadecir]

And what you're missing is that from 2004 until about the '06 All Star break Penn was absolutely the better prospect, putting up better numbers at a much younger age. Three months have altered things a bit, but it would be little surprise to anyone if Penn outpitched Maine again in 2007.

Maybe so. I wouldn't be surprised at almost any thing when it came to pitchers statistics in one year. But are there any of the projection systems that predict Penn will have a better year than Maine in 2007?

[nadecir]

If you can find one person in baseball or on this board who felt we should have traded Penn rather than Maine at the time, I'd be interested in seeing it. That's one issue. Sapper almost seemed to be saying that "HE told us so, that we should have traded Penn instead of Maine".

The second issue, is whether Maine will become the better pitcher looking at things now. That one is a little more cloudy. I'd still take Penn if you gave me the choice of each player over the next 6 years, but it's certainly not as open and shut as it once was.

I'd take both pitchers over Kris Benson, even if Benson wasn't hurt. Trading for Benson was a typical Oriole trade. Getting a league average pitcher who was over 30. Only in this case, the Orioles gave up some youth to get him. We gave up on John Maine after 43 innings pitched in the majors with the Orioles. Are we willing to give up on Hayden Penn now too? Penn has now pitched 58 innings in the majors to worse stats than Maine did in his first 43 innings.

[Sports Guy]

Did you read my post? Penn could have had a reasonable sample size in innings pitched if wasn't getting shelled in all but one of his starts. He only made it out of the third inning once. Penn was just a horrible pitcher in 2006. He needs to pitch a lot better in 2007 to be an effective major league starter.

Yea i did and no matter how good or bad he pitched, it still would have been a small sample size.

Penn has better stuff, is younger, has more upside and was clearly the better prospect. It really isn't even debateable.

Now, Penn has to regain confidence and show it on this level but all signs point towards Penn being better than Maine.

[DrungoHazewood]

Maybe so. I wouldn't be surprised at almost any thing when it came to pitchers statistics in one year. But are there any of the projection systems that predict Penn will have a better year than Maine in 2007?

PECOTA weighted mean EqERAs are 4.69 for Maine, 5.18 for Penn.

And Penn wasn't "just a horrible pitcher in 2006." He was a horrible pitcher for about two or three weeks in September. The rest of the year he was very good.

[Flosman]

Many people would have traded Penn then but almost noone would have given Penn and Julio for Benson. I would not trade Penn for a healthy Benson now. I now Maine has pitched well, but wouldn't you agree he has a lower ceiling than Penn. High ceiling pitchers should demand a very high return, even knowing alot of them will not reach thier potential. Maine may have been given up on a little early but his stuff was marginal so it is hard to argue that the move was stupid. Remember Maine has never had numbers like Penn's in AAA. It is truely a surprise that he has adjusted to the majors so well. He actually seems to recaptured what he had in the low minors.

[Leitch]

Maybe so. I wouldn't be surprised at almost any thing when it came to pitchers statistics in one year. But are there any of the projection systems that predict Penn will have a better year than Maine in 2007?

Not that I'm aware of, but PECOTA projects Maine to take a pretty big step back next year to the tune of 4.34 ERA, and that's in the Pitchers' haven of Shea Stadium.

People don't seem to realize that Maine coughed up a home run and a half per nine innings last year, in the NL and in Shea Stadium. His ERA was way ahead of his peripherals, which weren't really that good and his BABIP was .225. There is no way that John Maine puts up an ERA under 4 in Baltimore, and frankly, he's no better than Rodrigo Lopez or vintage Steve Trachsel, and we just ran the former out of town for two minor league relievers.

[DrungoHazewood]

Not that I'm aware of, but PECOTA projects Maine to take a pretty big step back next year to the tune of 4.34 ERA, and that's in the Pitchers' haven of Shea Stadium.

People don't seem to realize that Maine coughed up a home run and a half per nine innings last year, in the NL and in Shea Stadium. His ERA was way ahead of his peripherals, which weren't really that good and his BABIP was .225. There is no way that John Maine puts up an ERA under 4 in Baltimore, and frankly, he's no better than Rodrigo Lopez or vintage Steve Trachsel, and we just ran the former out of town for two minor league relievers.

That 4.69 EqERA I quoted was a context-neutral number. In the AL, in OPACY, he'd likely be close to a 5.00.

[Leitch]

That 4.69 EqERA I quoted was a context-neutral number. In the AL, in OPACY, he'd likely be close to a 5.00.

I think 4.69 is a little low, considering his ERA was a full run and a quarter ahead of his peripherals, and the fact that I don't like his face and I think he's a poo poo head.

[nadecir]

There is no way that John Maine puts up an ERA under 4 in Baltimore, and frankly, he's no better than Rodrigo Lopez or vintage Steve Trachsel, and we just ran the former out of town for two minor league relievers.

So are you actually saying you'd rather have Rodrigo Lopez or Steve Trachsel than John Maine at the present time?

For a league minimum salary, John Maine's production in 2006 was a steal. Ask the Met's fans what they think about John Maine. I guess we will have to see what happens in 2007. I still think we gave up on John Maine too early, and he'd look a lot better than Steve Trachsel or similar in the Orioles' rotation for the next few years.

[rolliefingers]

I still think we gave up on John Maine too early, and he'd look a lot better than Steve Trachsel or similar in the Orioles' rotation for the next few years.

Nice strawman there. Everyone would rather have Maine than Trachsel; that isn't the issue.