This is A Mess (Mega RANT Thread)

[wildcard]

I really hate a lot of this.

A lot of dope smoking going on in this thread. Trade Jones and Britton? That's a non starter right there.

[Redskins Rick]

A lot of dope smoking going on in this thread. Trade Jones and Britton? That's a non starter right there.

:agree:

[Stotle]

A lot of dope smoking going on in this thread. Trade Jones and Britton? That's a non starter right there.

It's not ideal, but we play the hand we're dealt, don't we?

[Stotle]

:agree:

Oh, I'm potentially very wrong. But I'm more from the school of "figure out the best solution you can and execute" than "I'm sure it will all work out in the end," and this is the best solution I could find for trying to find some long term solutions without sacrificing a chance to compete now.

[Redskins Rick]

I don't think anything should be off limits. The end goal is to put together a championship team, IMO. Having said that, it won't happen. Billy Beane wouldn't be afraid of dealing either guy. Duquette might not be afraid. The owner would never go for it.

Billy made some mid-season trades last season, to strengthen his team for the post season run.

How did that work out for him?

[weams]

I don't think anything should be off limits. The end goal is to put together a championship team, IMO. Having said that, it won't happen. Billy Beane wouldn't be afraid of dealing either guy. Duquette might not be afraid. The owner would never go for it.

Beane would not trade them if his team was two and a half games back.

[eddie83]

All correct.

The PRIMARY intention was to sell high on cost controlled star players. As I note repeatedly with the Bedard trade, there should be the possibility of including in the prospects acquired one or two major league ready guys who could put up quality WAR numbers right away to reduce the impact of the talent lost.

Clearly, there is a bit of hindsight saying we would have competed anyway, but I will say that I do not think it is a coincidence. Similarly, trading the players was not made with the thought the team would languish at the bottom of the division. There was a core of Jones, Tillman, Machado, Bundy, EdRod and others in the organization.

Dealing cost controlled players for prospects brings financial flexibility, reduced injury risk and an accumulation of talent that has a way of working into competitiveness quicker than expected.

So we trade those players after dealing for Norris in 2013? Cruz and Ubaldo aren't going to be signed either. There has to be some consistency in your approach.

Bedard brought back a young pitcher in Tillman years away and Jones. Dealing Hardy, Davis and Wieters the teams making those deals are going to deal you Jones type of pieces to fill those holes? Jones was very raw when we first got him and we stunk his first 4 seasons. Until 2012 Jones was wasted playing on bad teams.

[wildcard]

It's not ideal, but we play the hand we're dealt, don't we?

Sorry but Jones embodies everything that Dan and Buck are about is building a winner. He is the face, the captain, the enforcer to play the game right. Britton is cost controled top of the market closer.

When you have as many pieces as the O's have and just won 96 games and the AL East last year, you try to fix it not blow it up.

[Stotle]

Sorry but Jones embodies everything that Dan and Buck are about is building a winner. He is the face, the captain, the enforcer to play the game right. Britton is cost controled top of the market closer.

When you have as many pieces as the O's have and just won 96 games and the AL East last year, you try to fix it not blow it up.

If you look at that team I wrote up and consider that "blowing it up" I'm not sure what to tell you. Emotional attachments are great for fans -- it connects us to the teams we root for. They really shouldn't be governing factors in front office or managerial decisions.

[weams]

If you look at that team I wrote up and consider that "blowing it up" I'm not sure what to tell you. Emotional attachments are great for fans -- it connects us to the teams we root for. They really shouldn't be governing factors in front office or managerial decisions.

Bill disagrees.

[wildcard]

If you look at that team I wrote up and consider that "blowing it up" I'm not sure what to tell you. Emotional attachments are great for fans -- it connects us to the teams we root for. They really shouldn't be governing factors in front office or managerial decisions.

Emotional attachments??? Jones is a repeat All-Star and GGer. He is a middle of the order bat. On top of that he is the guy that Buck relies on to police the clubhouse. He is the closest thing the O's have had to Frank Robinson in 40 years. And he is 29. He has three prime years left.

Britton is a lights out closer with a sinker that everyone knows he is going to throw and no one can hit. He is in the mold of first ballot HOFer Mariano Rivera. And he is 27. He is now an All-Star and well deserving of the honor. He was a super-2 this year which means the O's have him for another 3 years.

There is a big difference between evaluating players on their production versus emotion attachment. It seems that you are so busy looking for stars of the future that you don't know what the O's already have.

This is not 2008 when MacPhail traded Bedard for Jones and Tillman. That was a bottom of the division team. This is a team with a core of players that have went to the playoffs two of the last three years. Yes, they could use a few more players this year but I think Dan will trade minor leaguers for veterans trying to win the East and go deep in the playoff. Not trade his stars.

[hoosiers]

A lot of dope smoking going on in this thread. Trade Jones and Britton? That's a non starter right there.

Folks one day not long ago would have said trading Wieters and JJohnson was a non-starter and yet we just paid the minimum to Caleb Joseph and Zach Britton to replace them.

Too many players listed on this thread as being too critical to the success of the Orioles the past three years that we could not have done without. Wieters, Davis, Hardy, Jones, probably add Tillman, Britton, Chen and maybe a few others (Markakis). I remember people saying how critical Norris was last ... as if the list of untradeables on this team exceeds 10 or more. I understand these are likeable guys, but come on.

IMO, only Chen, Tillman, Machado and Jones have been vital to our success - mostly because of their production v cost.

If the BoSox can trade Nomar Garciaparra in the middle of a playoff race, I think the Orioles list of untradeables should be nowhere near 10 guys. Folks here should be more open to dealing quality, cost controlled veterans to receive quality prospects.

[wildcard]

Folks one day not long ago would have said trading Wieters and JJohnson was a non-starter and yet we just paid the minimum to Caleb Joseph and Zach Britton to replace them.

Too many players listed on this thread as being too critical to the success of the Orioles the past three years that we could not have done without. Wieters, Davis, Hardy, Jones, probably add Tillman, Britton, Chen and maybe a few others (Markakis). I remember people saying how critical Norris was last ... as if the list of untradeables on this team exceeds 10 or more. I understand these are likeable guys, but come on.

IMO, only Chen, Tillman, Machado and Jones have been vital to our success - mostly because of their production v cost.

If the BoSox can trade Nomar Garciaparra in the middle of a playoff race, I think the Orioles list of untradeables should be nowhere near 10 guys. Folks here should be more open to dealing quality, cost controlled veterans to receive quality prospects.

The O's can trade players but not Jones and Britton for Pete's sake. They are young productive players and a big part of the O's future. These are the kind of players you trade for not trade off when you are in a pennant race.

[Stotle]

Emotional attachments??? Jones is a repeat All-Star and GGer. He is a middle of the order bat. On top of that he is the guy that Buck relies on to police the clubhouse. He is the closest thing the O's have had to Frank Robinson in 40 years. And he is 29. He has three prime years left.

Britton is a lights out closer with a sinker that everyone knows he is going to throw and no one can hit. He is in the mold of first ballot HOFer Mariano Rivera. And he is 27. He is now an All-Star and well deserving of the honor. He was a super-2 this year which means the O's have him for another 3 years.

There is a big difference between evaluating players on their production versus emotion attachment. It seems that you are so busy looking for stars of the future that you don't know what the O's already have.

This is not 2008 when MacPhail traded Bedard for Jones and Tillman. That was a bottom of the division team. This is a team with a core of players that have went to the playoffs two of the last three years. Yes, they could use a few more players this year but I think Dan will trade minor leaguers for veterans trying to win the East and go deep in the playoff. Not trade his stars.

I think the disconnect is you seem to think looking for future production necessarily means someone doesn't care about present production. What's curious is you accuse me of being obsessed with future production at the expense of current production and conveniently ignore I proposed trading Harvey/Sisco/international money for one year of Upton.

Again, look at the team I put on paper and tell me with a straight face that at the start of the season you think that is a markedly worse team than the club the O's started with.

[CA-ORIOLE]

What I don't get. I see some moves with the future in mind. The Upton move doesn't really fit. Why are we trading two of our top 5 prospects for a one year rental? The team you built is arguably pretty comparable to the current team. With Myers, Bradley, Renfroe, we have some future pieces. Why give up two more future pieces for Upton?

JBJ. Not saying he won't ever hit. But with a .543 OPS in 509 career AB's, how long would he have actually lasted in CF for this team. He'd be in Norfolk right now and David Lough or someone would be our CF. What's the latest on Myer's wrist? He's been having problems with it for two years now.

Yeah, I'm not sure I get it either. Seems like we trade proven longer term guys like Jones and Britton (even reasonably cost controlled) for a one year rental with Upton (certainly a fine player) and Myers (a talented guy with big question marks) and the prospect pieces balance in our favor. Stotle (and you) certainly have more knowledge about prospects than me, but lets just say I'm unconvinced that this is even a marginally better path than the one we're on. Short or longer term.