This is A Mess (Mega RANT Thread)

[Redskins Rick]

So you agree a 120 million dollar payroll is a "meager allowance" ? That is downright funny. If you want to be critical of how the money was spent then that is prob fair game but to say that the team is cheap or operates on a meager allowance is just utterly silly.

Show me one MLB team that does not engage in roster manipulation. The O's may be on the extreme of that occasion but not all that is by design.

1927 Yankees did not.

[Going Underground]

Agreed. This team has a bunch of platoon players that requires routine roster manipulation.

Buck talks about track record and none of the corner outfielders have any. A 32 year old outfielder who has had a good half year. A 29 y/o outfielder with speed but can't steal bases and has one double. A 31 y/o outfielder who is often injured. Who in 2012 had 69 PA,140 in 2013 and 78 in 2014 in the majors. Another outfielder in his eighth season who has never driven in more then 38 RBI's. Another player who has batted .229 in 2012, .228 in 2013,.256 in 2014 and is now hitting .224 in 2015. Platoon is a good word or maybe worse.

[SteveO]

1927 Yankees did not.

If this team fails to make the playoffs it will not be because they are cheap. It will be as a result of how and on whom they spent their available resources. Ultimately it will be as a result of decisions that turned out bad. Note this though....decisions that turn out bad are not necessarily bad decisions at the time. If every decision turned out the way we expect or thought it would well there would be little to talk about. *Cue some posters heads exploding in 3, 2, 1 *

[eddie83]

You're bouncing around different issues. Also, I didn't say you can go sign $17 MM/20 MM worth of free agents -- though you certainly could. I said you have that money available to spend (extensions, international spend, taking on a player in trade that might have otherwise pushed you past your budget, etc.).

The macro issue is Baltimore wants to be a competitive major league team and also needs to pay some attention to building for the future if they want to have any sustainable success. That's it.

The facts are as follows: We know Baltimore has been trading talent out of the minors. We know Baltimore gave up draft picks for free agents. We know Baltimore isn't interested in the higher-end J2 market. We know Baltimore is going to be a middle of the road payroll.

This leadership has proven innovative and impressive in managing the 40 man and 25 man in order to keep this club competitive the past two seasons. They have done so while seeing the minor league talent pool shrink considerably. You have to address that. Trading a high value asset and replacing the production with less expensive talent (or improvements elsewhere) is one way to do that. If you think there is a better solution I'm all ears. I'm just stating that being locked into buy/sell is a dumb way to do business in today's game.

The minor league system is an issue. I just don't think you deal away players like Wieters and Davis to fix it. When you have the core we have had you build around it, not tear it down to an extent.

What I would do in the short term is to invest our money in position players and build our pitching staff mainly in house. Good or bad Jimenez, Tillman, Gonzalez are here through 2017. Gausman fills another spot and I expect the number 5 role to go to in house with maybe a Chris Young type signing as insurance. The bullpen will be cheaper as well. Britton will start to make more, Brach will be back, Givens, perhaps they decide Wright is better in the pen like a Wade Davis.

We need to start drafting better to stay competitive over the long haul. I just don't think that trading those players away in those circumstances made sense.

[pollaxt]

So you agree a 120 million dollar payroll is a "meager allowance" ? That is downright funny. If you want to be critical of how the money was spent then that is prob fair game but to say that the team is cheap or operates on a meager allowance is just utterly silly.

Show me one MLB team that does not engage in roster manipulation. The O's may be on the extreme of that occasion but not all that is by design.

The payroll is in the bottom half of baseball. The playoff-contending teams with a smaller payroll has shown a great ability to draft and develop players which reduces the need to spend money on free agents and in arbitration: Twins; Mets; Rays; and Astros. So, until Baltimore learns to draft and develop players like those teams have been able, we need to simply spend more for players to make up for the deficiencies of the farm system.

[capsdude69]

But in the 70's and 80's teams had 6-7 man benches, not now. With only 4 man benches it is hard to platoon everywhere.

Pretty mind blowing that the 1980 Orioles used only TWELVE pitchers all season (and three of those guys Kerrigan/Boddicker/Hartzell pitched only 8 games COMBINED). So essentially a 9 man pitching staff for the entire season. My how times have changed!

[Dipper9]

Remember we were a step away from the World Series. You would think this would the time to pull the trigger on a trade or sign a FA or two. We lost three very good players and got little to nothing in return. I don't blame DD. We all knows who signs the checks.

For the love of God can we please STOP with this? Seriously!

[hoosiers]

I have never understood that line of thinking either. I don't get why you blow your core up so you might get prospects that can help you down the road when you are competitive. When teams like Oakland and Tampa do this it is out of financial necessity.

If you look at how the As and Rays operate and conclude simply that those actions are made of financial necessity, I think you are missing a great lesson. Those teams have figured out that few assets in baseball are valued as highly as a cost-controlled star and that other teams are willing to trade bucket loads of prospects for them. The As and Rays might be weakening their 25 man roster, but they are strengthening their overall talent base. IMO, it is simply ?selling high? on a star and ?buying low? on quality prospects.

The As and Rays are not the only teams to learn this lesson. The biggest bricks in the foundation of the current Os run were laid by the trading of Erik Bedard ? a cost controlled pre-FA star. Interestingly, with Bedard, the Os received more WAR production from Jones than the Mariners did with Bedard. Sure, there was an injury, but there is also strengh in numbers.

If you could have traded the same Erik Bedard for the same return after the 2012, 2013 and 2014 seasons, would you have? I would have. That?s why I called for trading JJohnson a year before he was a salary dump and why I advocated trading Wieters, Davis and even JJHardy when their values were near peak. Recycling these stars can lead to sustained competitiveness.

So, perhaps you better understand now. I am not advocating blowing up a core, but making moves to improve the overall talent base in the organization. Hey, it takes some stones to trade quality players, but if you can get more back in return that what you give up, fortune favors the bold. It certainly does not favor the GMs who carry stars past their peak production. IMO, it is difficult to conclude anything other that the Os would be in better shape today, better shape for tomorrow and hardly worse for wear last season, if they had dealt Wieters, Davis and Hardy when advocated. I think this all is fairly obvious, but I can see my favorite troll has once again followed my opinion with "ridiculous", "ludicrous" and other kind phrases, so what do I know?

[Can_of_corn]

The A's and Rays have also had a number of bad contracts, just more of them are of the 1-2 year variety.

[SteveO]

The payroll is in the bottom half of baseball. The playoff-contending teams with a smaller payroll has shown a great ability to draft and develop players which reduces the need to spend money on free agents and in arbitration: Twins; Mets; Rays; and Astros. So, until Baltimore learns to draft and develop players like those teams have been able, we need to simply spend more for players to make up for the deficiencies of the farm system.

Payroll is 17th last I heard which puts them in the middle third of payroll.

I would like to have seen them spend a little more and shore up the roster with a player or two who is more reliable but to go from that to calling them cheaper and referring to the payroll as a "meager allowance" is flat out drama momma worthy.

If the team was cheap they could have ....Not tendered Hunter, Matusz, Pearce, Davis, MW or Norris...that would have saved a ton of money right? Some might argue we would have been BETTER off had they decided to be a little cheap were a few of those guys are concerned.

Its not what they spent its the results they are getting from some of the guys they spent it on .....just like every other MLB team.

[Dipper9]

We're missing an impact bat and a bullpen arm and it shows. With the starters on this team you need 3 All Star level relievers to contend. We're one short.

Wasn't there a pressbox article like 10 days ago that declared that every complaint about the offseason was a rash decision? Boy does that look dumb.

DD had a horrible offseason. You could have sold me on not bringing back any of the FA's but not when Travis Snider is your big acquisition. And that trade looks horrible now. Tarpley is killing.

This team needs a "professional hitter" that has gap to gap power and works the pitcher. Also another reliever to pair with O'day and Britton.

You're saying the Press Box article was dumb, yet you have a whole post about how terrible we are based on a 10 game stretch? Okay then.

I think I'll wait for the end of the season before I start sculpting Duke's Hall of Fame plaque OR roasting the guy.

[El Gordo]

It would be nice to put Davis back at 1B and replace Parmelee etc. with an OF who could give us Davis like numbers in RF, but who would that be and how much would that cost?

[eddie83]

If you look at how the As and Rays operate and conclude simply that those actions are made of financial necessity, I think you are missing a great lesson. Those teams have figured out that few assets in baseball are valued as highly as a cost-controlled star and that other teams are willing to trade bucket loads of prospects for them. The As and Rays might be weakening their 25 man roster, but they are strengthening their overall talent base. IMO, it is simply ?selling high? on a star and ?buying low? on quality prospects.

The As and Rays are not the only teams to learn this lesson. The biggest bricks in the foundation of the current Os run were laid by the trading of Erik Bedard ? a cost controlled pre-FA star. Interestingly, with Bedard, the Os received more WAR production from Jones than the Mariners did with Bedard. Sure, there was an injury, but there is also strengh in numbers.

If you could have traded the same Erik Bedard for the same return after the 2012, 2013 and 2014 seasons, would you have? I would have. That?s why I called for trading JJohnson a year before he was a salary dump and why I advocated trading Wieters, Davis and even JJHardy when their values were near peak. Recycling these stars can lead to sustained competitiveness.

So, perhaps you better understand now. I am not advocating blowing up a core, but making moves to improve the overall talent base in the organization. Hey, it takes some stones to trade quality players, but if you can get more back in return that what you give up, fortune favors the bold. It certainly does not favor the GMs who carry stars past their peak production. IMO, it is difficult to conclude anything other that the Os would be in better shape today, better shape for tomorrow and hardly worse for wear last season, if they had dealt Wieters, Davis and Hardy when advocated. I think this all is fairly obvious, but I can see my favorite troll has once again followed my opinion with "ridiculous", "ludicrous" and other kind phrases, so what do I know?

Bedard was dealt as I am sure you would agree when the team was not competitive. I look at the Donaldson trade now and still shake my head. Unless those prospects pan out Billy dealt a top 10 player for Lawrie.

You have no idea nor do I what they would have received in return? If we deal those players other moves would not have been made. You were going to fill the SS, C and 1B holes in the deals those three players would have opened up? You need a willing trade partner who views these players as game changers and in an era where youth rules would have given up the type of talent that is so hard to find.

If we had ready players in our system to replace those 3 then that changes my thinking.

[TonySoprano]

You're saying the Press Box article was dumb, yet you have a whole post about how terrible we are based on a 10 game stretch? Okay then.

I think I'll wait for the end of the season before I start sculpting Duke's Hall of Fame plaque OR roasting the guy.

Exactly. It wasn't a "mess" 10 games ago.

Dan was counting on bounce-back seasons from Manny, Davis and Wieters and they responded. Manny's having a career year with more HRs already than in any full season. I'd rather have this Davis than last year's model.

[SteveO]

It would be nice to put Davis back at 1B and replace Parmelee etc. with an OF who could give us Davis like numbers in RF, but who would that be and how much would that cost?

Either that or leave him RF and get a 1B who can hit.

Snider, Pearce, Parmelee, Lough, and Reimold. That is a whole bunch of meh