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O's Have Contacted Upton

SticksandStones

By SticksandStones
in Orioles Talk

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Herman Major Leaguer Cup of Coffee

Herman

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You obviously don't understand, because there is no double standard. A strike out for a pitcher is different than a strike out for a batter in value. Maybe if we called one a strike out and the other a whiff it would help you. :rolleyestf:

See my post below

It makes perfect sense to me.

Then again I've actually read books and stuff.

Are you insulting my intelligence because I don't study fangraphs and have a life? Sorry dude but I have a good job and a life so my feelings aren't going to be hurt by an anonymous person with 48,000 posts on a single message board :thumbsup1:

Strikeouts are positively correlated to power for hitters. But they reduce balls in play, and are outs 99.9% of the time for pitchers. That's why they always go up - there is no natural check on strikeouts since they are the manifestation of positive traits for both hitters and pitchers. But you actually have to think through that and internalize it. If you grew up knowing that Ks were always bad and strikeouts were for guys who couldn't hit you may not want to learn new things.

Thanks for the explanation. So how about when guys who aren't power hitters have poor plate discipline?

It has been demonstrated that pitchers have far less influence on the hitters' batting average on balls in play (BABIP) than the hitters do. Therefore, if you see a pitcher who had a decent ERA but very low strikeouts, there's a pretty good chance that he just had a lucky year and that in the future when his luck evens out his ERA will go up. But for hitters, some guys tend to have higher BABIPs than others on a consistent basis.

The other point is, we are talking about what strikeout rates might indicate about future success. Your complaint about strikeouts has been different, and is focused on whether it impacts an individual game. It is very clear that, in the aggregate, the impact of a strikeout vs. any other kind of out in a game is very minimal. It's rather easy to quantify, and that has been discussed many times on this board and elsewhere. You simply choose to ignore the facts. Nobody is saying high strikeouts for a hitter are a good thing, just that their impact is pretty small. You'd rather have Chris Davis and 200 strikeouts than some contact hitter who puts up a .700 OPS.

Thank you for the mostly non smart-ass response. I don't ignore the facts I just choose to actually watch games for the enjoyment of the sport as opposed to complex analytical enjoyment. I personally think that strikeouts and poor plate discipline are more detrimental than the statistics suggest because I believe that there are things that are not quantifiable...like momentum. Chris Davis' high amount of strikeouts are compounded by the fact that he plays on a team with poor plate discipline.

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QBsILLEST1 All-Star

QBsILLEST1

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Posted
See my post below

Are you insulting my intelligence because I don't study fangraphs and have a life? Sorry dude but I have a good job and a life so my feelings aren't going to be hurt by an anonymous person with 48,000 posts on a single message board :thumbsup1:

Thanks for the explanation. So how about when guys who aren't power hitters have poor plate discipline?

Thank you for the mostly non smart-ass response. I don't ignore the facts I just choose to actually watch games for the enjoyment of the sport as opposed to complex analytical enjoyment. I personally think that strikeouts and poor plate discipline are more detrimental than the statistics suggest because I believe that there are things that are not quantifiable...like momentum. Chris Davis' high amount of strikeouts are compounded by the fact that he plays on a team with poor plate discipline.

I dont understand why a hitter's patience would be affected by any other hitter's level of patience.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

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See my post below

Are you insulting my intelligence because I don't study fangraphs and have a life? Sorry dude but I have a good job and a life so my feelings aren't going to be hurt by an anonymous person with 48,000 posts on a single message board :thumbsup1:

Thanks for the explanation. So how about when guys who aren't power hitters have poor plate discipline?

Thank you for the mostly non smart-ass response. I don't ignore the facts I just choose to actually watch games for the enjoyment of the sport as opposed to complex analytical enjoyment. I personally think that strikeouts and poor plate discipline are more detrimental than the statistics suggest because I believe that there are things that are not quantifiable...like momentum. Chris Davis' high amount of strikeouts are compounded by the fact that he plays on a team with poor plate discipline.

I wasn't insulting your intelligence, I was questioning your knowledge level . I would think someone with a good job and life would be able to tell the difference. You strike me as the type of fan that revels in their ignorance. That somehow willfully holding on to outmoded concepts make their fandom more pure.

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El Gordo Hangout Grand Counsel

El Gordo

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Posted

I wasn't insulting your intelligence, I was questioning your knowledge level . I would think someone with a good job and life would be able to tell the difference. You strike me as the type of fan that revels in their ignorance. That somehow willfully holding on to outmoded concepts make their fandom more pure.

I was. Most intelligent people are smart enough to know when they don't know much about a subject they should keep their mouths shut until they do. Or at least show a little humility. Make a serious inquiry into analytics and afterwards if you still feel the way you do about SO, present your case. Otherwise shut up. People might mistake you for a troll.
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terps19 All-Star

terps19

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I know that. It was a sarcastic question to expose the double standard. I have been relatively vocal in my issues with strikeouts (the team has poor plate discipline, most notably Davis) only to be shot down by sabermetrics guys like Drungo who argue that a strikeout is the same as any other out. So I ask, if it isn't a big deal for a hitter then why is it a big deal for a pitcher?

LOL I understand just fine but the double standard is interesting. Strikeouts are important to pitchers but not important to hitters. Think about that...

and I don't post here often

Cant the same be said about pitchers and hitters for strikeouts, or at least a similar approach. A pitcher loads the bases, then strikes out the side, or strikes out the first batter and the next batter induces a double play, no runs scored. Chris Davis (or Adam Jones, whoever) comes to the plate with a guy on second and no one out. They strike out. The next guy grounds, out and the third out is a fly ball to the OF. No runs scored. Now had CD or Jones put the ball in play, that increases the odds that the runner advances from second to third, and a run scores possibly in the inning.

Too many times in the past two years have we seen a guy in scoring position and no outs, only to be left stranded on base without scoring. Yup and out is an out, but there are such things as productive outs (a strike out is not productive) and a lot of the Os hitters are not good at providing productive outs.

A ball put in play by a hitter increases the odds of getting on base, either by a hit, or an error. A hitter who strikes out will 999 out of 1000 times not reach base.

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