Arrieta Posts

[25 Nuggets]

THIS. This is what happened. For real. He's said it publicly. The Cubs just let him go back to what was comfortable for him and what he was used to for years.

When the Orioles "fixed" their pitchers they actually neutered them.

[Larry18]

Whatever Rick Peterson is doing doesn't appear to be working.

[Frobby]

My beef is that the Orioles seem to either underestimate what they do have or waste their time trying to reclaim someone who is largely done or on his last chance. Jurrgens, Eaton, Garcia, Millwood, Feldman, Trachsel - on and on it goes. We let Alfredo Simon go and he becomes an all star, Jake, is another example. Just once Id like to see us take a project and make him a #1 or #2. Congratulations Jake. You earned it.I just wish it had been for us.

First of all, Feldman doesn't belong on your list of pitchers who were largely done and who we took a chance with. He was a solid no. 3-4 type when we got him, not that old, he performed as expected and did well enough to earn a 3/$30 mm deal from the Astros.

Second of all, I wouldn't shed too many tears over Alfredo Simon. Yes, he was decent for three years in Cincinnati, 2 years as a reliever and one as a starter. He was worth a combined 4.1 WAR in those three years. Last year he was sub-replacement level.

But we've had our own luck over the years picking up guys like that -- Rodrigo Lopez (9.4 WAR for us), Jeremy Guthrie (16.4 WAR for us), and Miguel Gonzalez (7.9 WAR for us). Darren O'Day (9.2 WAR for us) was a waiver claim, Brad Brach (2.4 WAR so far) was traded for a fairly low level prospect who has done nothing. Every team gives up on guys who perform well elsewhere, and pick up guys who do better than expect for them.

So that brings us to Arrieta. Yes, it will always bother me that we were unable to unlock the potential that obviously was there. It doesn't bother me so much that we traded him; it bothers me much more that we weren't able to get even decent performance from him in 2012-13, and that it took the Cubs virtually no time at all to fix it. That's the real travesty here.

[SpinJr]

So that brings us to Arrieta. Yes, it will always bother me that we were unable to unlock the potential that obviously was there. It doesn't bother me so much that we traded him; it bothers me much more that we weren't able to get even decent performance from him in 2012-13, and that it took the Cubs virtually no time at all to fix it. That's the real travesty here.

So will you concede our pitching development is in the wrong hands? I've been wanting (and waiting) for leadership to cut bait and start over with a whole new pitching development staff and philosophy.

[Frobby]

So will you concede our pitching development is in the wrong hands? I've been wanting (and waiting) for leadership to cut bait and start over with a whole new pitching development staff and philosophy.

The guy who I believe was most responsible was the major league pitching coach, Rick Adair. He's already gone. I'm not ruling out some responsibility from the minor league coaching staffs, but let's remember that Jake was called up to the majors in mid-2010 and was half-decent in that season and the next. He got worse the longer he stayed in the majors, so I'm not sure the minor league staff was the problem.

[Aristotelian]

Adair suggested he was pitching hurt while with the Orioles and the limits they placed on him were trying to protect his elbow. That could be Adair defending himself but I am always inclined to look for a health issue first before blaming coaching.

http://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2015/10/former-orioles-pitching-coach-rick-adair-talks-about-jake-arrieta.html

"When you take something out that big, and there was a lot of discussion whether to do it or not because the integrity of the elbow was in question taking out a mass that big," Adair said. "It was somewhere between like a golf ball and a walnut or whatever. When you do that kind of surgery on an elbow, the last thing that comes is a guy's feel. Jake had always worked around the ball. He didn't have flexibility in that elbow, he had pain, and he did things in his delivery to compensate so that elbow wouldn't swell up. He would be great on the side, but you'd get in game situations and it just didn't work with all the adrenaline and the emotional spikes and all that kind of stuff.

Using the cutter again certainly has benefitted Arrieta, who can dominate hitters with an assortment of pitches.

"That had to do with the elbow," Adair said. "When you're taking that kind of mass out of your elbow and you're a guy who's always worked around the ball, you're trying to get to where you can get the ball to go the other way, and the cutter wasn't ideal for that.

"I wasn't as opposed to it as some other people were. We tried to get him to use his curveball, tried to get him to use his changeup more, because he definitely needed something to go away from left-handers. Everything always seemed to work into left-handers and away from right-handers. I think the elbow was a big issue."

[Frobby]

Adair suggested he was pitching hurt while with the Orioles and the limits they placed on him were trying to protect his elbow. That could be Adair defending himself but I am always inclined to look for a health issue first before blaming coaching.

http://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2015/10/former-orioles-pitching-coach-rick-adair-talks-about-jake-arrieta.html

"When you take something out that big, and there was a lot of discussion whether to do it or not because the integrity of the elbow was in question taking out a mass that big," Adair said. "It was somewhere between like a golf ball and a walnut or whatever. When you do that kind of surgery on an elbow, the last thing that comes is a guy's feel. Jake had always worked around the ball. He didn't have flexibility in that elbow, he had pain, and he did things in his delivery to compensate so that elbow wouldn't swell up. He would be great on the side, but you'd get in game situations and it just didn't work with all the adrenaline and the emotional spikes and all that kind of stuff.

Using the cutter again certainly has benefitted Arrieta, who can dominate hitters with an assortment of pitches.

"That had to do with the elbow," Adair said. "When you're taking that kind of mass out of your elbow and you're a guy who's always worked around the ball, you're trying to get to where you can get the ball to go the other way, and the cutter wasn't ideal for that.

"I wasn't as opposed to it as some other people were. We tried to get him to use his curveball, tried to get him to use his changeup more, because he definitely needed something to go away from left-handers. Everything always seemed to work into left-handers and away from right-handers. I think the elbow was a big issue."

I've heard it, and I don't buy it. Arrieta had his elbow surgery in August 2011. He never once complained about his elbow after that. In January 2012 he talked about what a relief it was to pitch without worrying about his elbow: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-01-22/sports/bal-arrieta-eager-to-show-orioles-that-elbow-problems-are-in-the-past-20120121_1_orioles-manager-buck-showalter-elbow-completely-different-pitcher In spring training he pronounced himself pain-free and he "can't remember a time in my career where I felt this good on a daily basis." http://m.masn.mobi/amber-theoharis/2012/02/jake-arrieta-excited-to-pitch-pain-free.html So I refuse to accept that his elbow was an issue in 2012 or 2013, especially considering how Arrieta pitched for the Cubs in 2013 immediately after joining them.

[TouchemAll]

I always liked Jake Arrieta. I thought he was a confident, maybe cocky, raw talent who knew he could pitch in the big leagues but didn't quite put it all together for the Birds.

I would NEVER root against a former Oriole as long as he wasn't in our division or played for the Yankees or Red SOX.

I am sincerely happy for the guy. He had a historic second half of 2015 and when he was on, which was mostly late in the season I think he was the very best pitcher in the game.

One thing though.

I want to know what key unlocked that talent.I want to know why multiple Oriole pitching coaches couldn't refine or helped define his ability and maybe more troubling is this fact.

The Orioles rarely turn projects into masterpieces.

You could maybe point to Miguel Gonzales but he is hardly a 5 star pitcher.I was reasonably pleased with what they did in simplifying Ubaldo in the first half of last year and made him a decent pitcher for us?too bad he didn't repeat it in the second half.

My beef is that the Orioles seem to either underestimate what they do have or waste their time trying to reclaim someone who is largely done or on his last chance. Jurrgens, Eaton, Garcia, Millwood, Feldman, Trachsel?on and on it goes. We let Alfredo Simon go and he becomes an all star, Jake, is another example. Just once Id like to see us take a project and make him a #1 or #2. Congratulations Jake. You earned it.I just wish it had been for us.

There is no doubt trading away a Cy Young winner hurts, but in all honestly I would have bet against that ever happening when the O's gave up on him, and it's exasperating that the O's could not press the right buttons when he was here.

[Orioles4Life21]

I think it would serve the Orioles well to put more emphasis on sport psychology...

[Stotle]

Arrieta having such a great season is somewhat disturbing. I am happy for Jake and don't blame him for anything. But damn.

One of the elements that a good GM should have is to be able to identify extreme talent and keep it on the team long term. If Dan does not have that ability then Arrieta may be just the first to have great success after leaving the O's. Ed Rod, Hader, Trapley, etc.

I give a lot of credit to Dan for the O's winning as many games over the last 4 years as any other AL team. But the ultimate goal is to win the World Series. Pitching is the main element that makes that happen. And great pitching makes it more likely.

I know in trade you have to give something to get something. But I guess Andy MacPhail spoiled me. He showed that he could get talent and give away lesser talent. It doesn't hurt so much to give away Uehara when Davis is the player you get in return.

Dan has some very good qualities. Good judgement on the players he gives in trades does not seem like one of them. Its a shame.

I

I don't get the sense the Orioles excel at scouting themselves. That's one of the most important aspects of making out well in trades when you aren't dealing a known superstar.

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[SteveO]

The guy who I believe was most responsible was the major league pitching coach, Rick Adair. He's already gone. I'm not ruling out some responsibility from the minor league coaching staffs, but let's remember that Jake was called up to the majors in mid-2010 and was half-decent in that season and the next. He got worse the longer he stayed in the majors, so I'm not sure the minor league staff was the problem.

Could Jake Arrieta's failure to recognize his talent here be the product of over-correction?

Before AM's arrival there seemed to be a lack of a coherent and consistent philosophy towards pitching development. Perhaps the Orioles failure to allow Jake to pitch the in manner that would bring him the most success was in part the product of an organization being to rigid in its attempts to correct what was an issue that needing correcting. Not saying this was the sole factor, just suggesting it may have been a contributing factor that got the ball rolling and perhaps because of it, at some point Jake tuned out coaching, lost confidence etc......

For me if the organization looks at the Arrieta fiasco honestly from an internal point of view and recognizes where they made their mistakes, that is the best we can hope for moving forward and hopefully it will be the something positive that comes of this. I think sometimes people fail to recognize that change and fixing systemic failures within an organization is a process and not something that one puts new philosophies in place and poof......everything is alright. Just because we messed up with Arrieta does not mean this organization has not made some strides in pitching development IMO.

[Es4M11]

I think it's foolish for the Orioles organization, at any level, to tell pitchers which pitches to use or not use, which side of the mound to throw from. What resume of success do they have to fall back on to show they know what they are doing? The pitching development from top to bottom has been severely lacking for a long time. Seeing the results the Cubs and Red Sox have gotten with Arrieta and EdRod -- by allowing these guys to pitch how they're most comfortable -- really has me wondering why the Orioles think they are going to be successful developing pitchers by forcing them to adhere to some template. The track record suggests the Orioles method does not work.

[TouchemAll]

I would love to see a story in Jake's own words what clicked when he got to the cubs, and what didn't work here.

[Phantom]

Sigh. This trade is killing me. And I was totally for it at the time. I never would have dreamed Arrieta had this kind of season in him.

Luckily, we're all set at starting pitcher. What would we even do with a Cy Young winner?

:sobs:

[Herman]

I would love to see a story in Jake's own words what clicked when he got to the cubs, and what didn't work here.

I would too but he would just say what we already know.

I'm happy for Arrieta and I hope that his Cy Young is a wake up call to the Orioles (but who are we kidding)