When do the O's fish or cut bait with Duquette and Showalter?

[SteveA]

37 minutes ago, Roy Firestone said:

I may be in the minority but I think both Duquette and Buck have mostly done a very good job with the Orioles in their tenure. I think DD has made some very good moves and will always be criticized for losing Erod, Davies, and Miranda..and of course taking a deep shot with Ubaldo. I still think DD is one of the best  in his field but he is constrained by Angelos financially.

I think Buck is close to retirement...maybe 2019 will be his retirement.

Id rehire Duquette if I could, and Peter likes him...but I think he will leave.

Just my opinion.

To keep the Orioles competitive every year and in the playoff hunt every year is a tough thing to do with FA. But this team will look drastically different next year: No Tillman, Hardy(likely), Miley, Castillo(possibly), Kim, and looming FA battles will probably drop this club back for an upcoming season or two.But both Buck and DD deserve to be brought back..

If you had told me on Opening Day 2012 that for the next 6 years the Orioles would be in contention just about every year (except maybe for September 2013, so far), would never have a losing season in those 6 years, would have made the playoffs 3 or 4 times, made at least one ALCS, all despite the fact that they had just had 14 straight losing seasons and had a farm system rated in the 20s and an owner who didn't seem to want to spend money -- I would have thought you were absolutely CRAZY.   If you were able to convince me you really were a time traveler from the future who knew this, I would have been ecstatic.

[24fps]

7 minutes ago, wildcard said:

There is one thing that I don't see mentioned here.   Dan has a year left on his contract.  Peter is not letting him out of it to shop around.   If Peter offers him an extension his off season there is not competition.  Just Dan and Peter figuring out if the money, position and control is right.

I suspect DD already has a fairly clear idea as to what the possibilities might be at other organizations without having to shop around.  Enough to calculate whether the gamble would be worthwhile at any rate.  He already has an intimate understanding of the limitations that come with working for the Angelos family as well which shouldn't be underestimated IMO.   

If Dan doesn't return, I don't think he stays unemployed for very long.  That being said, I would like to see him come back to the O's without having to spend a year as a lame duck.  He deserves a lot of credit for the recent success.

[theocean]

Duquette and Showalter have been a winning combination - I think Angelos will want to retain both. The only issue I could see is if Duquette and Showalter don't want to work together in the future. There were reports a few years ago about how their relationship was volatile and unsustainable. It seems like they have a decent working relationship now.

[big_sparxx]

There is a train of thought that says long term planning is only important if I am a part of it. There is only so much blood we can ghet out of this rock, and while we might like to think we are contenders (and that hasn't been proven wrong yet) I don't think anyone sees this picture in 3 years and wonders what happened.

Angelos will flog this horse until it has no miles left on it, for that you can be certain.

I also think the "Brady" factor is going to come into play. No one has mentioned it, but I would not be surprised to see him take over for Dan, and I think Buck will stay as long as he thinks he can be competitive. If theres a chance we are closer to 100 losses than 100 wins, he might bid a fond farewell.

[LAOSfan]

7 minutes ago, big_sparxx said:

There is a train of thought that says long term planning is only important if I am a part of it. There is only so much blood we can ghet out of this rock, and while we might like to think we are contenders (and that hasn't been proven wrong yet) I don't think anyone sees this picture in 3 years and wonders what happened.

Angelos will flog this horse until it has no miles left on it, for that you can be certain.

I also think the "Brady" factor is going to come into play. No one has mentioned it, but I would not be surprised to see him take over for Dan, and I think Buck will stay as long as he thinks he can be competitive. If theres a chance we are closer to 100 losses than 100 wins, he might bid a fond farewell.

I agree with this.  I think Brady will be the next GM or will choose the next GM to work under him in some role.  I know Brady irritated some coaches and at least one player (Wieters) but how is his relationship with Buck?  Believing that Brady's elevation into a personnel role is inevitable, I have been encouraged with some of his responses in interviews regarding analytics and his belief in locking up our own young players before they get close to free agency.  If memory serves, he was openly critical that there were not more aggressive attempts to lock up Manny a few years ago.  

[FlipTheBird]

1 hour ago, Sessh said:

..which are outweighed by the 14 postseason games he's lost and couldn't win a single game when he actually made it to the ALCS. So, the Orioles exited the postseason with a losing record despite the ALDS sweep. It's not nonsense, it's called facts. Showalter, no matter how good the team is he has, does not produce results in the postseason and by results, I don't mean getting swept out of the ALCS with the best team this franchise has had during his tenure here and making himself the laughing stock of baseball for not using Zach Britton last season which likely cost the Orioles 2-3 more innings to win the game.

Ned Yost made it to the World Series in back to back years. I'd take that over any and everything Showalter has done since he's been here especially considering they actually WON one and nearly won both.

Of course it holds water; his track record spells it out in giant neon letters. If the ALDS is the main goal for you, I guess we were champions that year! Woohoooo!

Well, Buck's teams always lose the "crapshoot" before actually making any significant impact once they get there. Why is it Buck's teams are just never up for the challenge? They're always the "cold" team unless it's the Tigers, I guess? He makes the same mistakes he made 20 years ago with the Yankees as evidenced last year against Toronto. He's a stubborn man set in his ways which virtually guarantees nothing will change. Sure though, let's just stick with the guy that, for whatever reason, doesn't motivate his teams in the postseason more than the other guys. He doesn't get the best out of his players when it really matters. Let's keep making excuses, though. That's much easier and far more sensible because a 20 year track record is insignificant. Let's also ignore the 14 losses and lack of any significant postseason success in favor of those nine wins, too.

You say all this like Buck personally lost the 2014 ALCS. This is baseball. Coaches cannot and do not have the immediate impact on individual games that NFL coaches do.

He "doesn't motivate his teams in the postseason?" Really? You have this on some sort of inside authority? Because just losing a game doesn't mean a team wasn't motivated.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Sessh said:

..which are outweighed by the 14 postseason games he's lost and couldn't win a single game when he actually made it to the ALCS. So, the Orioles exited the postseason with a losing record despite the ALDS sweep. It's not nonsense, it's called facts. Showalter, no matter how good the team is he has, does not produce results in the postseason and by results, I don't mean getting swept out of the ALCS with the best team this franchise has had during his tenure here and making himself the laughing stock of baseball for not using Zach Britton last season which likely cost the Orioles 2-3 more innings to win the game.

Ned Yost made it to the World Series in back to back years. I'd take that over any and everything Showalter has done since he's been here especially considering they actually WON one and nearly won both.

Of course it holds water; his track record spells it out in giant neon letters. If the ALDS is the main goal for you, I guess we were champions that year! Woohoooo!

Well, Buck's teams always lose the "crapshoot" before actually making any significant impact once they get there. Why is it Buck's teams are just never up for the challenge? They're always the "cold" team unless it's the Tigers, I guess? He makes the same mistakes he made 20 years ago with the Yankees as evidenced last year against Toronto. He's a stubborn man set in his ways which virtually guarantees nothing will change. Sure though, let's just stick with the guy that, for whatever reason, doesn't motivate his teams in the postseason more than the other guys. He doesn't get the best out of his players when it really matters. Let's keep making excuses, though. That's much easier and far more sensible because a 20 year track record is insignificant. Let's also ignore the 14 losses and lack of any significant postseason success in favor of those nine wins, too.

I can't speak to anything that happened while Buck was in NY, Arizona or Texas, because I wasn't paying much attention.    But I've paid very close attention to what's happened in Baltimore.   Buck's been an excellent manager here and I seriously doubt we would have made the playoffs in 2012 or 2016 if we'd had some average Joe Manager.   

Yes, I want postseason success, but that's not my sole basis for judging a manager.    Earl Weaver lost 3 of the 4 World Series he was in, though in my opinion he had the superior team all three times he lost.     Do I wish we'd had Gil Hodges, Danny Murtaugh or Chuck Tanner instead?    He'll, no.     News flash: the best team doesn't always win a short series, and the vast majority of the time, the manager has nothing to do with it.   When Buck leaves, there's about a 90% chance the next manager won't be as good.   

[Rick_Schu]

Roy, why do you think Buck is ready to retire??  To do what?? Seems like he's doing exactly what he wants to be doing with his life. He's not like the rest of us!   

Id like to see Buck extended, John Angelos and Brady promoted, and Dan move on, and Pete retire.  Orioles Magic FOREVER!! 

 

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, Rick_Schu said:

Roy, why do you think Buck is ready to retire??  To do what?? Seems like he's doing exactly what he wants to be doing with his life. He's not like the rest of us!   

Id like to see Buck extended, John Angelos and Brady promoted, and Dan move on, and Pete retire.  Orioles Magic FOREVER!! 

 

Quote

“This is my last rodeo,” Showalter said. “I’m 58, going to be 59 here, I ain’t getting out of this alive.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2015/07/15/buck-showalter-on-his-last-rodeo-with-the-os-and-derek-jeters-final-home-game/?utm_term=.dff3ca27cadf

And that was two years ago.

[SteveA]

57 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2015/07/15/buck-showalter-on-his-last-rodeo-with-the-os-and-derek-jeters-final-home-game/?utm_term=.dff3ca27cadf

And that was two years ago.

I always took that quote more to mean that this would be his last managing job, he wouldn't want to start fresh somewhere new at his age.

I never took it to indicate ANY sort of limitation on how much longer he would keep this job before retiring permanently.

[FlipTheBird]

6 minutes ago, SteveA said:

I always took that quote more to mean that this would be his last managing job, he wouldn't want to start fresh somewhere new at his age.

I never took it to indicate ANY sort of limitation on how much longer he would keep this job before retiring permanently.

True. Certainly reads to me that he's saying that once he takes off his O's cap, he won't be putting on another one... not that he's ready to throw the towel in here shortly.

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, SteveA said:

I always took that quote more to mean that this would be his last managing job, he wouldn't want to start fresh somewhere new at his age.

I never took it to indicate ANY sort of limitation on how much longer he would keep this job before retiring permanently.

I don't know, when someone says last rodeo three years before his contract is up I'm not thinking extension.

[El Gordo]

I don't see Buck getting out of baseball after 2018. I think there are a number of jobs he might be interested in that wouldn't require being on the road so much. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, El Gordo said:

I don't see Buck getting out of baseball after 2018. I think there are a number of jobs he might be interested in that wouldn't require being on the road so much. 

I figured he'd end up back on TV.

[thezeroes]

4 hours ago, PaulFolk said:

In any case, I knew it was only a matter of time before this kind of nonsense cropped up.

Same for me.  Earlier with the Orioles when they did not win a playoff series that was used as an example.  Now it is that we have not played in the World Series.  Next it will be we did not win the World Series.  Can't win with those fans.