It's funny

[25 Nuggets]

11 hours ago, eddie83 said:

How many people wanted Zach traded who had an issue with Givens pitching tonight? 

So it is ok for Givens to be our future closer and take on a tougher role if Zach was dealt but yet Buck messed up tonight. 

I'm not going to blame Buck for that.  I think it's unnecessary criticism from a painful loss.

[25 Nuggets]

9 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Well said.   I don't like our odds, but I won't give up hope.   There are still twists and turns to come.  

We've got two months of this and the die is cast.  Gotta win every game they can.

[Moshagge3]

11 hours ago, SteveA said:

No it wasn't clear at all.   Pitchers give up hits sometimes.   It doesn't mean they don't have it.

Buck brought in one of the best relief pitchers in the major leagues to do a job -- pitch the 8th.

Are you saying he should have had someone warming to start the inning with a good, reliable reliever in?   That's kind of silly, especially when it's the guy you are going to use in the 9th.

The first two hits happened on 6 pitches.  Even if you believe that the hits are a sign of someone "losing it", rather than just major league hitters doing their job and happening to get hits off a very tough pitcher -- if you get Britton up after the two hits, he's probably not going to be ready in time to face Upton.

The idea that Britton should have been warmed and brought in the 8th is silly.   Sometimes you put a guy who is extremely qualified in to do a job and he can't get it done.   It's a shame.   But you don't panic and start warming someone else at the first sign of weakness.   You expect him to do his job.  Period.   If he has a rare failure, that sucks but it's the way it goes.  

I have seen literally hundreds of times in the game threads over the past few years where people start saying Buck should "get this pitcher out of here".   Sometimes the pitcher does implode and give up runs, but more often than not he gets the job done.   Of course people only remember the times the pitcher failed and see it as an indictment of Buck.   They forget the many times the guy settles down and gets the job done.   And they forget that we almost always have a strong bullpen in August/Sept because of the way Buck managed it all year.

I respect your opinion as much an anyone's on this board, Steve, but I'm still going to push back. The Orioles sent a message on July 31, which is that

1) They are all in on 2017 and they're going to try to make a run and win every game possible.

2) They consider 2017 Britton to be basically 2016 Britton in terms of value.

Regarding point 1, if you're "all in", considerations I'm hearing like "you have to let the 8th inning guy do his job and finish the 8th inning" or "Givens might eventually be the closer someday, so let's audition him, test his mettle, etc." are not valid considerations. Teams that are all in aren't auditioning guys for the future or putting somebody's assigned bullpen role over winning the game.

Regarding point 2, this is not about me being a mercurial fan who has forgotten how good Givens has been, or turning on Givens after a couple of hits and screaming for any warm body to replace him. Zach Britton is not a warm body, at least not in the Orioles' stated plans for this year. He is a historically powerful bullpen weapon who forces strikeouts and ground balls. As hot as Givens has been, he does not have an amazing K rate or an amazing ground ball rate, and he has given up 1.2 HR/9 which is what Kevin Gregg put up his two years here. Zach Britton, if healthy, is made for that situation. That situation is why Britton is a tier beyond Brandon Kintzler and Tony Watson and the other 9th-inning-only closers that got moved. So this isn't about disrespecting Givens or taking him for granted, it's about the fact that you have a freaking Cy Young candidate at your disposal, who you kept on your roster specifically to win games like these. If you're worried about overuse (even though he had been off for three nights) then let Brach pitch the 9th if Britton gets out of it. I also disagree that Britton could not have warmed in time. The Adduci AB was very long.

And Buck's comments are typical Buck exaggeration in defense of a pitcher who struggled. The hits were not "bloops" they were line drives (albeit not screaming line drives) that happened because Givens located his fastball very poorly on 0-2 pitches to the 8-9 hitters. Jose Iglesias is a banjo hitter and if he can get around your 0-2 fastball to drive it to right, you didn't have an amazing fastball. I don't think Givens had a single swing and a miss.   

[thezeroes]

2 hours ago, 25 Nuggets said:

We've got two months of this and the die is cast. 

Now are we talking about close game with an occasional hiccup from personal out to do their jobs OR the "Negative Nellie" come out of the woodwork after a loss????

[Going Underground]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

Well said.   I don't like our odds, but I won't give up hope.   There are still twists and turns to come.  

Also much better to be in the AL for a wild card this year. Be out about 9 1/2 in the NL. The second wild card might be just a few games over .500.

[weams]

30 minutes ago, Moshagge3 said:

I respect your opinion as much an anyone's on this board, Steve, but I'm still going to push back. The Orioles sent a message on July 31, which is that

1) They are all in on 2017 and they're going to try to make a run and win every game possible.

2) They consider 2017 Britton to be basically 2016 Britton in terms of value.

Regarding point 1, if you're "all in", considerations I'm hearing like "you have to let the 8th inning guy do his job and finish the 8th inning" or "Givens might eventually be the closer someday, so let's audition him, test his mettle, etc." are not valid considerations. Teams that are all in aren't auditioning guys for the future or putting somebody's assigned bullpen role over winning the game.

Regarding point 2, this is not about me being a mercurial fan who has forgotten how good Givens has been, or turning on Givens after a couple of hits and screaming for any warm body to replace him. Zach Britton is not a warm body, at least not in the Orioles' stated plans for this year. He is a historically powerful bullpen weapon who forces strikeouts and ground balls. As hot as Givens has been, he does not have an amazing K rate or an amazing ground ball rate, and he has given up 1.2 HR/9 which is what Kevin Gregg put up his two years here. Zach Britton, if healthy, is made for that situation. That situation is why Britton is a tier beyond Brandon Kintzler and Tony Watson and the other 9th-inning-only closers that got moved. So this isn't about disrespecting Givens or taking him for granted, it's about the fact that you have a freaking Cy Young candidate at your disposal, who you kept on your roster specifically to win games like these. If you're worried about overuse (even though he had been off for three nights) then let Brach pitch the 9th if Britton gets out of it. I also disagree that Britton could not have warmed in time. The Adduci AB was very long.

And Buck's comments are typical Buck exaggeration in defense of a pitcher who struggled. The hits were not "bloops" they were line drives (albeit not screaming line drives) that happened because Givens located his fastball very poorly on 0-2 pitches to the 8-9 hitters. Jose Iglesias is a banjo hitter and if he can get around your 0-2 fastball to drive it to right, you didn't have an amazing fastball. I don't think Givens had a single swing and a miss.   

The main issue here is if Britton really is defective. That is what you are gambling on. And if he is not now, with every pitch that he throws, a gamble. 

[Moshagge3]

2 minutes ago, weams said:

The main issue here is if Britton really is defective. That is what you are gambling on. And if he is not now, with every pitch that he throws, a gamble. 

Which vindicates the teams that didn't want to trade much for him.

[weams]

20 minutes ago, Moshagge3 said:

Which vindicates the teams that didn't want to trade much for him.

Oh sure. And those who lose in the playoffs because their lefty was not QUITE good enough. See, it's not math. It's just a gamble

[SteveA]

1 hour ago, Moshagge3 said:

I respect your opinion as much an anyone's on this board, Steve, but I'm still going to push back. The Orioles sent a message on July 31, which is that

1) They are all in on 2017 and they're going to try to make a run and win every game possible.

2) They consider 2017 Britton to be basically 2016 Britton in terms of value.

Regarding point 1, if you're "all in", considerations I'm hearing like "you have to let the 8th inning guy do his job and finish the 8th inning" or "Givens might eventually be the closer someday, so let's audition him, test his mettle, etc." are not valid considerations. Teams that are all in aren't auditioning guys for the future or putting somebody's assigned bullpen role over winning the game.

Regarding point 2, this is not about me being a mercurial fan who has forgotten how good Givens has been, or turning on Givens after a couple of hits and screaming for any warm body to replace him. Zach Britton is not a warm body, at least not in the Orioles' stated plans for this year. He is a historically powerful bullpen weapon who forces strikeouts and ground balls. As hot as Givens has been, he does not have an amazing K rate or an amazing ground ball rate, and he has given up 1.2 HR/9 which is what Kevin Gregg put up his two years here. Zach Britton, if healthy, is made for that situation. That situation is why Britton is a tier beyond Brandon Kintzler and Tony Watson and the other 9th-inning-only closers that got moved. So this isn't about disrespecting Givens or taking him for granted, it's about the fact that you have a freaking Cy Young candidate at your disposal, who you kept on your roster specifically to win games like these. If you're worried about overuse (even though he had been off for three nights) then let Brach pitch the 9th if Britton gets out of it. I also disagree that Britton could not have warmed in time. The Adduci AB was very long.

And Buck's comments are typical Buck exaggeration in defense of a pitcher who struggled. The hits were not "bloops" they were line drives (albeit not screaming line drives) that happened because Givens located his fastball very poorly on 0-2 pitches to the 8-9 hitters. Jose Iglesias is a banjo hitter and if he can get around your 0-2 fastball to drive it to right, you didn't have an amazing fastball. I don't think Givens had a single swing and a miss.   

I still think you win more games in the long run if you don't panic in the moment and make extra pitching changes every time a pitcher struggles some.   And I know Buck thinks that.too.    I think way more often than not a pitcher giving up some hits isn't because something is wrong and "he doesn't have it".   You are battling major league hitters and sometimes they will win the battles.   A manager can't let a couple bad pitches or mistakes or just good hitting by the opposition convince him that there is something wrong with the guy who was the best guy for the role two minutes ago when you brought him in the game.   Managing by panic is not a good strategy.

[Moshagge3]

41 minutes ago, SteveA said:

I still think you win more games in the long run if you don't panic in the moment and make extra pitching changes every time a pitcher struggles some.   And I know Buck thinks that.too.    I think way more often than not a pitcher giving up some hits isn't because something is wrong and "he doesn't have it".   You are battling major league hitters and sometimes they will win the battles.   A manager can't let a couple bad pitches or mistakes or just good hitting by the opposition convince him that there is something wrong with the guy who was the best guy for the role two minutes ago when you brought him in the game.   Managing by panic is not a good strategy.

First, I don't know that "in the long run" applies to this team. They basically have to play to a .650 winning percentage in under two months to have a realistic shot, and DD has indicated that they are pursuing that. They already gave up a game because they're letting their veteran with an 8.10 ERA work through his issues.

Second, I have said repeatedly that this is not about Givens. This is about the unique and massive gifts of Zachary Grant Britton. Would you agree that 1) Zach Britton, if healthy, is the best reliever on the team by a country mile, and 2) bases loaded, 1 out in the 8th inning of a 1-run game is very likely to be the highest leverage situation in the game? Then the best reliever should pitch in the highest leverage spot. The fact that Britton is uniquely capable of getting out of such a situation with one pitch is icing on the cake. Again, I am NOT down on Givens. Even if nothing that happened was remotely his fault, even if the hits had been Orioles errors and the walk had been a blown call by the umpire, Britton still should have been in the game because he is a historically-good talent. In your posts you don't even mention his name, which makes it sound like we're generically talking in the abstract about pitching changes. Zach Britton is not a generic closer.

[SteveA]

Just now, Moshagge3 said:

First, I don't know that "in the long run" applies to this team. They basically have to play to a .650 winning percentage in under two months to have a realistic shot, and DD has indicated that they are pursuing that. They already gave up a game because they're letting their veteran with an 8.10 ERA work through his issues.

Second, I have said repeatedly that this is not about Givens. This is about the unique and massive gifts of Zachary Grant Britton. Would you agree that 1) Zach Britton, if healthy, is the best reliever on the team by a country mile, and 2) bases loaded, 1 out in the 8th inning of a 1-run game is very likely to be the highest leverage situation in the game? Then the best reliever should pitch in the highest leverage spot. The fact that Britton is uniquely capable of getting out of such a situation with one pitch is icing on the cake. Again, I am NOT down on Givens. Even if nothing that happened was remotely his fault, even if the hits had been Orioles errors and the walk had been a blown call by the umpire, Britton still should have been in the game because he is a historically-good talent. In your posts you don't even mention his name, which makes it sound like we're generically talking in the abstract about pitching changes. Zach Britton is not a generic closer.

So you advocate getting Britton up at the start of nearly every inning in case it becomes a critical leverage situation but the first two runners getting on?   That's obviously ludicruous.

Those first two hits came on a total of 6 pitches, so unless you really do believe that he should be up at the start of every close inning, obviously you wouldn't be able to get him up until Kinsler came up.

Would he even have had time to loosen up and get ready by the time Upton came up?   That's questionable.   And if you do, are you goinig to bring him in to face Upton when you have a guy who career-wise strikes out about 13 righthanded batters per 9 innings?

I just don't see it.   It's unfortunate the way it turned out.   But sometimes you just have to put a guy out there to do his job and if he can't he can't.   Trying to bail him out by hastily warming someone else -- even someone as great as Britton -- and bringing them in the middle of an inning, is panicking IMO.   And when you factor in recent performance -- Givens great month vs Britton still being a bit inconsistent since coming off the DL -- I just don't buy it.

Let's agree to disagree.

[Cumberbundy]

Early in tonight, flat out dominance, Det scratched the top of the ball a couple times before the nastiest pitch of the night ended it. Still working with 19-21 losses. Well done BPen.

[Moshagge3]

An appalling loss tonight. Zach Britton can be hastily warmed up in order to come into a 7-2 game and add a cheap save to his meaningless streak, but he is nowhere to be found as Brad Brach throws batting practice.

[foxfield]

11 minutes ago, Moshagge3 said:

An appalling loss tonight. Zach Britton can be hastily warmed up in order to come into a 7-2 game and add a cheap save to his meaningless streak, but he is nowhere to be found as Brad Brach throws batting practice.

Pretty hard to swallow for sure. I'm sure there is a reason but BB was getting hit pretty hard today and it seemed like a good time to bring in a closer who hasn't blown a save in 2 years.....

[joelala]

2 hours ago, Moshagge3 said:

An appalling loss tonight. Zach Britton can be hastily warmed up in order to come into a 7-2 game and add a cheap save to his meaningless streak, but he is nowhere to be found as Brad Brach throws batting practice.

Absurd.  I'm lost.  But what I'm sure of is that we are babying ZB.  That isn't even a question to me. And I honestly can't figure out why.  I can only think its because we want plan to trade him in the off-season, and are praying to god teams won't look at his usage.  The situation is a mess.