Duquette Future

[joelala]

10 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

I agree by and large with this assessment.  I certainly don't see him as "the worst GM", etc.  I do think however that he brought certain strengths that fit well with where the organization was at the time Andy Macphail left.  I really think his skill set would not have worked near as well without the groundwork laid previous to his arrival and with Buck already on board.  And, it is really for that reason that I think it is time to move on to someone who is better suited for the next phase which is very likely going to be a rebuilding, analytic based era as I do not see Dan as the guy for that particular challenge.  I also just have to think that his dalliance with Toronto had to have impacted his relationship with Angelos to some extent and I have had to wonder if and how that affected his overall effectiveness since then. 

This.  All of this.  I totally get the frustration with Dan and his idiocy as it relates to trading away pitchers like Bridwell and Ed Rod.  But lets say the O's won the WS in 2014, which was a very real chance.  Would we still be feeling this way?  That said, now Duquette needs to go, and we need to find someone to patch up this ship that seems to be rapidly taking on water. 

And this may be an unpopular opinion here on this board, but I think Buck is just as much to blame for our current state as Dan.  He needs to go too.  We just need to move on.  We didn't get it done with these guys, and now we need to move on. 

[joelala]

Also, I can't help but laugh when I hear about us being interested in Miguel Gonzalez.

[Tx Oriole]

28 minutes ago, Cumberbundy said:

What is going on in Toronto, their GM appears to have freedom to acquire awful contracts than Dan never could. That trade with Miami was insanity, but things may have changed by now. Acquiring Tulo, Donaldson, Josh Johnson, Buehrle, Reyes all through trades bc the owner was willing to pay seems to be a freedom Duq doesn't have but I defer to you. They also have some elite talent from the international market.

But it's Angelos that put the kabash on the international market. Not DD.

 

[eddie83]

2 hours ago, Tx Oriole said:

What you mean Jake never had a chance? I thought he had many chances in Baltimore. 

 

He did. It was sarcasm. 

[Tx Oriole]

32 minutes ago, Cumberbundy said:

I apologize for being a pain in the butt, the two losses to Ana have gotten the better of my tact & I apologize to those I've been impatient with, unfair to, sarcastic with, or a jerk to. I need to step back! No one deserve to be spoken to with any tude, you guys have treated me incredibly well. 

 

No need for you to apologize. We are all frustrated how things turned out. And understand your frustration. If I have offended you or anyother poster I apologize.

[Tx Oriole]

4 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

He did. It was sarcasm. 

I see I missed it again. 

[eddie83]

1 hour ago, Cumberbundy said:

In my eyes, 30 innings of Miller in a strong pen was never worth 1500 innings of EdRod. In my eyes, it happened and it was awful. It was absolutely atrocious. We had a pen, we weren't that good, we needed to save our assets. It happened and we continue to pay for it. 

Arrieta was given up, with Strop, for nothing. He never had a chance to pitch how he wanted to, why? Duq. Theo laughs about the deal today and articles a written each year detailing how humiliating that deal was. I love sarcasm from people who neglect reality. Let's not note the fact that Duq put the restrictions on him, let's just make apologies for one of the worst trades in the last decade because? I'm glad you like Duq, you have the right to be wrong, and you've displayed it with enthusiasm.

You are the king of the strawman. You suggest that no one mentions Duqs limitations despite them being mentioned daily. You just made up a load of nonsense about what's in my eyes despite the act that I never said Hader was a starter....but he did strike out 7 of 10 Yankees he faced in Ny. How old is he? You seem to think he's expensive & failing, he's neither.

In reality, we have given up cheap cost controlled players who are better at baseball than their expensive replacements. 

Bridwell is better than Hellickson, Ubaldo, Tillman & Miley. Why isn't he here, because our GM is awful at his job. It's because of Angelos. In your eyes cheap talented players are not as valuable to a franchise as expensive lesser players. We can agree to disagree.

In my eyes, we'd be better today and for the next decade if Dan hadn't moved any of them. To my knowledge, that's the job. 

Cheers.

Hold on. First off I don't love DD. I just don't think he is the idiot that you do. 

Miller was a move to get the Orioles over the top. He did his part. We can argue this from a philosophical standpoint forever. 

Arrieta was a head case here. What did Duquette do to him?  Jake clashed with Adair- Buck's guy. Why does Buck take no blame for Jake? That part I never get. I mean pitcher after pitcher complain about Adair. When Dan arrived Arrieta was in the majors. Adair- Buck's guy was here before Dan. 

People rip Dan over the rotation. I never said Hader isn't a talent. That was all my point was with him. Where did I say he was a failure? 

You act like other GM's never screw up. He doesn't deserve a free pass but the more resources anyone has the more likely they succeed. He has been trying to add assets to keep winning. How many more prospects could we have kept or dealt in trades that he doesn't have access to? 

He was also the guy that added Gonzalez, Chen, Hammel and later Saunders that put us in the playoffs in 2012. That did happen. 

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, eddie83 said:

In your eyes 2014 Bud Norris never happened. Andrew Miller 2014 never happened. 

I consider Bud Norris to be a disappointment.     He was brought in during the 2013 season and did a lousy job.    He was admittedly pretty good in 2014, though I'm pretty confident we would have won the division without him.    Then he sucked so badly in 2015 we had to cut him.    Overall, for his three years here he was 21-20 with an ERA+ of 86.     That's not good at all.    I was OK with that trade when we made it, but with 20/20 hindsight it wasn't a good trade IMO.

Miller certainly met and even exceeded expectations in his 3 months here, but I felt at the time, and still do, that 6+ years of EdRod was too much to give up for 3 months of Miller, especially since we already had an above average bullpen.  

[wildcard]

28 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

I agree by and large with this assessment.  I certainly don't see him as "the worst GM", etc.  I do think however that he brought certain strengths that fit well with where the organization was at the time Andy Macphail left.  I really think his skill set would not have worked near as well without the groundwork laid previous to his arrival and with Buck already on board.  And, it is really for that reason that I think it is time to move on to someone who is better suited for the next phase which is very likely going to be a rebuilding, analytic based era as I do not see Dan as the guy for that particular challenge.  I also just have to think that his dalliance with Toronto had to have impacted his relationship with Angelos to some extent and I have had to wonder if and how that affected his overall effectiveness since then. 

What makes you think there is going to be a rebuild.  I doubt 87 year old Peter wants a rebuild.  He is a win now guy.  Dan and Buck have both been win now guys for the last 6 years.  

The O's need to add some starting pitching.   The are already talking about moving Castro to being a starter.  They appear ready to trade Britton.  Probably for starting pitching.  Dan normally trades minor leaguers for major leaguers and he will probably add starting talent in that manner this off season. 

The O's have a pennant contending team at Bowie that will net them some majors leaguers led but Hayes.   I don't see a rebuild.  I see a reload ordered by Peter.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

What makes you think there is going to be a rebuild.  I doubt 87 year old Peter wants a rebuild.  He is a win now guy.  Dan and Buck have both been win now guys for the last 6 years.  

The O's need to add some starting pitching.   The are already talking about moving Castro to being a starter.  They appear ready to trade Britton.  Probably for starting pitching.  Dan normally trades minor leaguers for major leaguers and he will probably add starting talent in that manner this off season. 

The O's have a pennant contending team at Bowie that will net them some majors leaguers led but Hayes.   I don't see a rebuild.  I see a reload ordered by Peter.

I agree that, just like last time, there will be a series of seasons where an attempt will be made to patch together a contender.  You don't get a 14 year streak of under .500 ball by doing things the sensible way.

[eddie83]

50 minutes ago, Cumberbundy said:

I apologize for being a pain in the butt, the two losses to Ana have gotten the better of my tact & I apologize to those I've been impatient with, unfair to, sarcastic with, or a jerk to. I need to step back! No one deserve to be spoken to with any tude, you guys have treated me incredibly well. 

 

Speaking for only me I have no issue with you. I just view Dan in a different light. I ripped Dan for the corner OF mess in 2015. I am not saying he doesn't deserve criticism now. I just think with a little more help from his owner he would be a lot smarter. My point is one more quality starter in the system maybe he doesn't make trade A or B. Dan has been chasing starting pitching pretty much his entire tenure here. Early on he hit and lately he hasn't. He deserves credit and blame. 

 

[wildcard]

7 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I consider Bud Norris to be a disappointment.     He was brought in during the 2013 season and did a lousy job.    He was admittedly pretty good in 2014, though I'm pretty confident we would have won the division without him.    Then he sucked so badly in 2015 we had to cut him.    Overall, for his three years here he was 21-20 with an ERA+ of 86.     That's not good at all.    I was OK with that trade when we made it, but with 20/20 hindsight it wasn't a good trade IMO.

Miller certainly met and even exceeded expectations in his 3 months here, but I felt at the time, and still do, that 6+ years of EdRod was too much to give up for 3 months of Miller, especially since we already had an above average bullpen.  

Who do you think was going to replace the 15 wins that Norris had on the 2014 team.  Which is the best team the O's have had in the last 20 years.

[spiritof66]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

What makes you think there is going to be a rebuild.  I doubt 87 year old Peter wants a rebuild.  He is a win now guy.  Dan and Buck have both been win now guys for the last 6 years.  

The O's need to add some starting pitching.   The are already talking about moving Castro to being a starter.  They appear ready to trade Britton.  Probably for starting pitching.  Dan normally trades minor leaguers for major leaguers and he will probably add starting talent in that manner this off season. 

The O's have a pennant contending team at Bowie that will net them some majors leaguers led but Hayes.   I don't see a rebuild.  I see a reload ordered by Peter.

I think that's right.  At least until next year's deadline, I don't expect any trades of established players -- Britton maybe, but not Manny or any others -- and if there are trades we'll be giving up our own prospects for guys who are in the MLs or very close to it.

[MDtransplant757]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

A few years ago the Jays were told there was no money for a playoff push.  It happened.  Having a corporation own a team isn't the most stable environment.

That's true. Nintendo owned the mariners for years, and no fruit came of it

[eddie83]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I consider Bud Norris to be a disappointment.     He was brought in during the 2013 season and did a lousy job.    He was admittedly pretty good in 2014, though I'm pretty confident we would have won the division without him.    Then he sucked so badly in 2015 we had to cut him.    Overall, for his three years here he was 21-20 with an ERA+ of 86.     That's not good at all.    I was OK with that trade when we made it, but with 20/20 hindsight it wasn't a good trade IMO.

Miller certainly met and even exceeded expectations in his 3 months here, but I felt at the time, and still do, that 6+ years of EdRod was too much to give up for 3 months of Miller, especially since we already had an above average bullpen.  

That's fine. We may have won without Norris in 2014 but no one knows that going in. That year outside of Ubaldo everyone pitched well.  

Miller was dominant here. He was our best relief pitcher here. He allowed no runs in the postseason. ERod had some injury issues that year and recently has had more.