Define this term

[Mackus]

I prefer to think that Fiorentino was more misplaced than rushed. Rushed assumes that one day you'll likely deserve a spot at the next level. I don't believe Fio ever had that legitimate capability.

I think you're 100% wrong about Fiorentino's abilities. He was a legitimate draft pick when we took him (2nd round). Anybody with that type of talent is good enough to eventually play in MLB if things go well. Fio just got screwed over development and options-wise by being put in over his head too quickly.

[mikezpen]

what the Orioles did to Penn, Riley, Olson, Liz, Fiorentino, Cabrera...

[Mackus]

what the Orioles did to Penn, Riley, Olson, Liz, Fiorentino...

Olson certainly wasn't rushed, he had dominated for a good amount of time at AAA just like every other level before being called up.

Liz is debatable, but ultimately I'd say he wasn't rushed, just maybe moved a little too quickly last year. He was ready for his callup this year for sure.

The rest I agree with.

[Frobby]

Bringing up a player who has the talent to be a competitive major league player, before he has enough minor league experience to be a competitive major league player.

Hitters who were rushed - Brian Roberts, Larry Bigbie, Luis Matos

Hitters who were not rushed - Nick Markakis, Jay Gibbons

Pitchers who were rushed - Garrett Olson & Radhames Liz (last year), Jim Hoey (2006)

Pitchers who were not rushed - Garrett Olson & Radhames Liz (this year), Jim Hoey (last year)

[NCRaven]

Bringing up a player who has the talent to be a competitive major league player, before he has enough minor league experience to be a competitive major league player.

Hitters who were rushed - Brian Roberts, Larry Bigbie, Luis Matos

Hitters who were not rushed - Nick Markakis, Jay Gibbons

Pitchers who were rushed - Garrett Olson & Radhames Liz (last year), Jim Hoey (2006)

Pitchers who were not rushed - Garrett Olson & Radhames Liz (this year), Jim Hoey (last year)

Rule 5 Draft guys are interesting. They've been in the minors for a while, so it's hard to say they're rushed. But they're also guys that have been deemed unready by their former clubs for sustained big league action or even a spot on the 40 man roster. Not disagreeing on Gibbons, just wondering how the average rule five player fits in the "rushed" discussion.

[IamtheSkip]

Bringing up a player who has the talent to be a competitive major league player, before he has enough minor league experience to be a competitive major league player.

Hitters who were rushed - Brian Roberts, Larry Bigbie, Luis Matos

Hitters who were not rushed - Nick Markakis, Jay Gibbons

Pitchers who were rushed - Garrett Olson & Radhames Liz (last year), Jim Hoey (2006)

Pitchers who were not rushed - Garrett Olson & Radhames Liz (this year), Jim Hoey (last year)

I'll agree to this.

Bigbie and Matos were massacred. Roberts... well, there weren't a lot of options that year. But rushed, I guess.

[wildcard]

Liz was not given enough time in AAA to develop consistency in his delivery or his mental and physical approach to the game. IMO that is why you are seeing inconsistency now from start to start. He was promoted early because the team needed a replacement for Trachsel. That is what I call being rushed.

Olson proved all he could be AAA before he was promoted. He was not rushed.

[Moose Milligan]

Do any of you agree that...regardless of being rushed, there comes a point in time where a player is going to sink or swim? For example, Bigbie...he might not have had as much time in the minors as he should have, but he had ample time in the majors. Do you think it would have mattered if he had another year in the minors or not? Was that all Bigbie would have ammounted to no matter how much time he had to "develop"?

This isn't taking into account someone like Loewen who can't shake the injury bug, btw.

[Stotle]

Do any of you agree that...regardless of being rushed, there comes a point in time where a player is going to sink or swim? For example, Bigbie...he might not have had as much time in the minors as he should have, but he had ample time in the majors. Do you think it would have mattered if he had another year in the minors or not? Was that all Bigbie would have ammounted to no matter how much time he had to "develop"?

This isn't taking into account someone like Loewen who can't shake the injury bug, btw.

I think a player has to "figure it out" by a certain point, but I do not agree that the "figuring out" can necessarily take place with the ML club. Low-minor development is incredibly important for building the foundation of the prospect as a ballplayer. While the high-minors should be closer to fine-tuning, there is still a ton of development involved.

I think it's a lot to expect for a player to sort out certain issues while playing for the win-first team in the organization. Players with significant flaws should not be on the ML squad unless they've eaten through their MiL time.

[Stotle]

Liz was not given enough time in AAA to develop consistency in his delivery or his mental and physical approach to the game. IMO that is why you are seeing inconsistent now from start to start. He was promoted early because the team needed a replacement for Trachsel. That is what I call being rushed.

Olson proved all he could be AAA before he was promoted. He was not rushed.

I lean towards this stance. Liz could have used more developmental time, but he isn't an example of "horrid misuse" or anything like that. Olson has developed all he can in his MiL time.

[AVencill]

You certainly left one guy out, even if he's no longer with the Orioles system. Brian Finch ring a bell? It's a huge jump from Delmarva to Bowie, yet he took it and crumbled like a cookie before posting a solid year with Frederick.

Another guy who was rushed, regardless of his numbers was Jim Hoey. Someone ask him about how his 2008 season is going. Even Bob McCrory sort of fits that mold. Now the both of them, plus Doyne who was retained at the end of last year are all banged up.

I will certainly agree with those already who have mentioned Fiorentino and Penn, although Penn's worked his way up the system and through a number of tough-luck injuries as well. I'll disagree with Liz, as he's had time to work his way through the system despite being called up late last year.

[TakebackOPACY]

"Rushing a prospect"

How do you define it?

Picture that you're playing a video game with four difficulty levels. You've mastered 'Level 1', but have never had the opportunity to play the next level. You decide it'd be fun to jump straight to 'Level 4'. So you're playing 'Level 4' and you can't get started. You can't figure out what to do. You can't figure out what you're doing wrong. You just keep getting killed.

Picture that you're studying a foreign language, and you've spent a long time mastering Lessons 1-10. You understand the accusative case and the dative case, and you decide now is a good time to read the translated version of The Fountainhead.

This is the extreme: A player is moved to a level where he can't compete and is too lost to figure out how to develop. The other end of that continuum is the perfect decisions, where a player is constantly challenged at the level that maximizes his improvement curve.

Everything is on that continuum.

[Leitch]

This is the extreme: A player is moved to a level where he can't compete and is too lost to figure out how to develop. The other end of that continuum is the perfect decisions, where a player is constantly challenged at the level that maximizes his improvement curve.

Everything is on that continuum.

Wouldn't the other end of that continuum be "Player gets buried in AA and stagnates because he's not being challenged"?

[TakebackOPACY]

Wouldn't the other end of that continuum be "Player gets buried in AA and stagnates because he's not being challenged"?

Yeah, I guess you're right. I was thinking of the continuum as 'ridiculousy rushed' on one end and 'not rushed' on the other end. But for "everything" to fall on the continuum, we'd have to take it all the way to the other end.

You'd have to go lower than 'AA' though, since even a major league star would be challenged enough at 'AA' to work on his game at least to some worthwhile extent.