The heir apparent O's owner

[Frobby]

14 hours ago, TonySoprano said:

O.K. IF in the event that Angelos has an identical arrangement as that of Illitch, and MLB tries to force the boys out, do they have grounds for a lawsuit?

Put it this way: I have zero doubt that they would try.   It would be an uphill battle, but given the history here, conceivably not impossible.   I’m frankly skeptical that MLB would try to veto an intra-family transfer, despite the hard feelings between MLB and Peter Angelos.

[wildcard]

The more I read about the Ilitch trust the more interesting it gets.

As part on Mike Ilitch's estate planning he placed the team and his other holding into a family trust.   Once that was done the team was owned by the trust.  So when he died there was no change of ownership.   The trust continues as the owner of the Tigers.   As far as  I can tell there was no vote by the MLB owners on the transfer of ownership because there was no transfer on ownership at Mike Ilitch's death.

So if Peter puts the Orioles into a family trust  the O's will be owned by the trust.   When Peter passed there will be no change of ownership.  And there should be no vote required by the MLB owners.

All this avoids estate taxes because there is not selling of the team.

Since estate planning and the development of a trust is a private matter the O's could already be in a trust and it would not be public knowledge.

[theocean]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

The more I read about the Ilitch trust the more interesting it gets.

As part on Mike Ilitch's estate planning he placed the team and his other holding into a family trust.   Once that was done the team was owned by the trust.  So when he died there was no change of ownership.   The trust continues as the owner of the Tigers.   As far as  I can tell there was no vote by the MLB owners on the transfer of ownership because there was no transfer on ownership at Mike Ilitch's death.

So if Peter puts the Orioles into a family trust  the O's will be owned by the trust.   When Peter passed there will be no change of ownership.  And there should be no vote required by the MLB owners.

All this avoids estate taxes because there is not selling of the team.

Since estate planning and the development of a trust is a private matter the O's could already be in a trust and it would not be public knowledge.

Thanks for posting this. Yes, when Peter Angelos passes - the team will still be in Angelos family control. I think the question is whether the Angelos sons would like to run the team or have a billion dollars to do other stuff with. 

I know the Commisioner's Office isn't pleased with the Orioles - but I really doubt they are that mad and would block an ownership change out of spite. 

[foxfield]

I am not an attorney.  I have worked with wealthy families helping them in this area.  

16 hours ago, spiritof66 said:

When there's a request to transfer control of a franchise, each owner can do whatever he wants. They are not bound to follow rules or precedents, or to be consistent, unless they want to be. I am pretty sure many owners follow the recommendation of the Commissioner, and that's why I think the Angeloses will be turned down no matter how their proposal is presented. 

Nonetheless it might be wise for Peter Angelos to do whatever Mike Ilitch did. The terms of Ilitch's trust are not public. Angelos may have gotten the trust documents, though.  

This will be difficult to actually pull off.  IF the family is denied the right to transfer and continue to own as a family, MLB will be forcing a sale and forcing a devaluation of an asset.  After carving off a chunk of the franchise fan base and creating another entity.  I do not think MLB will want to undertake this fight and will need to hope that the passing of PA will bring better relations...

16 hours ago, TonySoprano said:

O.K. IF in the event that Angelos has an identical arrangement as that of Illitch, and MLB tries to force the boys out, do they have grounds for a lawsuit?

In a word yes.  If MLB believes PA is hurting MLB, they have an obligation to step in anyway.  And in the cases of LA for the McCourts and the Reds with Marge Schott they have done exactly that...step in.  That is not going to happen as a result of PA dying, but of course I am stating an opinion.

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

The more I read about the Ilitch trust the more interesting it gets.

As part on Mike Ilitch's estate planning he placed the team and his other holding into a family trust.   Once that was done the team was owned by the trust.  So when he died there was no change of ownership.   The trust continues as the owner of the Tigers.   As far as  I can tell there was no vote by the MLB owners on the transfer of ownership because there was no transfer on ownership at Mike Ilitch's death.

So if Peter puts the Orioles into a family trust  the O's will be owned by the trust.   When Peter passed there will be no change of ownership.  And there should be no vote required by the MLB owners.

All this avoids estate taxes because there is not selling of the team.

Since estate planning and the development of a trust is a private matter the O's could already be in a trust and it would not be public knowledge.

This is not magically avoided.  It is the transfer of of the team itself to a trust would trigger the approval.  That does not mean it would be public.  But it does mean that MLB would have to be involved.  Again, in the article that you posted a few pages back.....this is what the Tigers Illitch Family did.  

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20170218/NEWS/170219847/who-owns-the-tigers-family-plan-is-a-matter-of-trust

Spouses are exempt from estate taxes, but children are not.  And trusts are their own beasts.  A family trust set up by PA could avoid estate taxes until the death of his spouse.  We make the assumption that a powerful attorney has a plan for his estate.  But Im not so sure.

To be fair, the Tigers family, in much better graces with MLB, announced publicly their own succession plan in 2016.  But part of that plan included moving Chris Illitch more to the front.  And John has certainly done that over the last year.  The Orioles have announced no such plan.  Just like they have not really announced a plan for the rebuild other than stating they are doing it.  Just like they never really planned to keep the window open or any contracts managed beyond 2018.

An estate plan that included a family living trust would be shielded from public eye, but it would be known.  And it would be subject to MLB approval. Looking at the article above and the announcement that MLB made regarding it's approval of Chris Illitch assuming control after his fathers death would give a very good path for the Orioles to follow IF that is what PA wants to do.  (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2017/05/18/chris-ilitch-approved-as-the-tigers-controlling-owner/101835458/) We don't know that his intention is to transfer the team.  Frankly we do not know if Angelos has the cash to handle continuing the ownership of the Orioles and pay the ultimate estate tax. 

But if he wants to do what Mike Illitch did, it's time to announce a succession plan.  Of course, we don't even have a GM or a manager beyond October of 2018.  Plan?  If I were a betting man and I am not, virtually everything we have done for 18 months looks like setting up for one last run for a ring and then a sale.  And the window on one last run is now officially closed.  Until more "plans" are revealed, it still looks like a sale to me.

 

[Redskins Rick]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

The more I read about the Ilitch trust the more interesting it gets.

As part on Mike Ilitch's estate planning he placed the team and his other holding into a family trust.   Once that was done the team was owned by the trust.  So when he died there was no change of ownership.   The trust continues as the owner of the Tigers.   As far as  I can tell there was no vote by the MLB owners on the transfer of ownership because there was no transfer on ownership at Mike Ilitch's death.

So if Peter puts the Orioles into a family trust  the O's will be owned by the trust.   When Peter passed there will be no change of ownership.  And there should be no vote required by the MLB owners.

All this avoids estate taxes because there is not selling of the team.

Since estate planning and the development of a trust is a private matter the O's could already be in a trust and it would not be public knowledge.

I need @Frobby opinion of this.

Since the Oriole LP is already a corporation and the official owner of the Orioles, how would WC idea work out??

Just the majority shares in Orioles LP?????

[Frobby]

5 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

I need @Frobby opinion of this.

Since the Oriole LP is already a corporation and the official owner of the Orioles, how would WC idea work out??

Just the majority shares in Orioles LP?????

First, let me say that although I’m a lawyer, I don’t have much expertise in estate planning or tax.

That said, I don’t see any reason why the PA owned shares could not be put into a trust.   

By the way, technically Baltimore Orioles LP is not a corporation, it’s a limited partnership.    The “shares” are really partnership interests.    

[Redskins Rick]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

First, let me say that although I’m a lawyer, I don’t have much expertise in estate planning or tax.

That said, I don’t see any reason why the PA owned shares could not be put into a trust.    

I appreciate it, thanks.

[Frobby]

Just now, Redskins Rick said:

I appreciate it, thanks.

See my amendment to the answer you quoted.    

[Redskins Rick]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

See my amendment to the answer you quoted.    

Oh.

 

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, foxfield said:

I am not an attorney.  I have worked with wealthy families helping them in this area.  

This will be difficult to actually pull off.  IF the family is denied the right to transfer and continue to own as a family, MLB will be forcing a sale and forcing a devaluation of an asset.  After carving off a chunk of the franchise fan base and creating another entity.  I do not think MLB will want to undertake this fight and will need to hope that the passing of PA will bring better relations...

In a word yes.  If MLB believes PA is hurting MLB, they have an obligation to step in anyway.  And in the cases of LA for the McCourts and the Reds with Marge Schott they have done exactly that...step in.  That is not going to happen as a result of PA dying, but of course I am stating an opinion.

This is not magically avoided.  It is the transfer of of the team itself to a trust would trigger the approval.  That does not mean it would be public.  But it does mean that MLB would have to be involved.  Again, in the article that you posted a few pages back.....this is what the Tigers Illitch Family did.  

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20170218/NEWS/170219847/who-owns-the-tigers-family-plan-is-a-matter-of-trust

Spouses are exempt from estate taxes, but children are not.  And trusts are their own beasts.  A family trust set up by PA could avoid estate taxes until the death of his spouse.  We make the assumption that a powerful attorney has a plan for his estate.  But Im not so sure.

To be fair, the Tigers family, in much better graces with MLB, announced publicly their own succession plan in 2016.  But part of that plan included moving Chris Illitch more to the front.  And John has certainly done that over the last year.  The Orioles have announced no such plan.  Just like they have not really announced a plan for the rebuild other than stating they are doing it.  Just like they never really planned to keep the window open or any contracts managed beyond 2018.

An estate plan that included a family living trust would be shielded from public eye, but it would be known.  And it would be subject to MLB approval. Looking at the article above and the announcement that MLB made regarding it's approval of Chris Illitch assuming control after his fathers death would give a very good path for the Orioles to follow IF that is what PA wants to do.  (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2017/05/18/chris-ilitch-approved-as-the-tigers-controlling-owner/101835458/) We don't know that his intention is to transfer the team.  Frankly we do not know if Angelos has the cash to handle continuing the ownership of the Orioles and pay the ultimate estate tax. 

But if he wants to do what Mike Illitch did, it's time to announce a succession plan.  Of course, we don't even have a GM or a manager beyond October of 2018.  Plan?  If I were a betting man and I am not, virtually everything we have done for 18 months looks like setting up for one last run for a ring and then a sale.  And the window on one last run is now officially closed.  Until more "plans" are revealed, it still looks like a sale to me.

 

Thanks for the USA TODAY article.  You are right.   There has to be MLB owners approval.  I would think that means a willingness on the Angelos family's  part to settle the MASN dispute.   But then again its the commissioner and the Nats that want to see it settled.  I don't know how the other 28 team owners feel about it.

I don't see the Angelos paying the estate tax if they can avoid it.  It is on the whole 2 billion estate and  according the the articles its 40%.   That would be 800m dollars.   I think the trust sounds a lot better for them.

[weams]

I would not know if Mr Angelos would have the competency to change whatever he has put is place so far. I don't know that he doesn't. So I think we are chasing our tail here with our suggestions. 

[wildcard]

21 minutes ago, weams said:

I would not know if Mr Angelos would have to competency to change whatever he has put is place so far. I don't know that he doesn't. So I think we are chasing our tail here with our suggestions. 

What do you know about Peters competency?

[weams]

Just now, wildcard said:

What do you know about Peters competency?

As I said. I know nothing. 

[weams]

Just now, wildcard said:

What do you know about Peters competency?

What I did say was that the continued merry go round of advising the Law Offices of Peter Angelos how to deal with their estate planning is ridiculous here. 

[wildcard]

3 minutes ago, weams said:

What I did say was that the continued merry go round of advising the Law Offices of Peter Angelos how to deal with their estate planning is ridiculous here. 

No one on here is advising a Law office.   I am just trying to figure out what the options are and what precedents have been set.  I thought we were allowed to talk about Os stuff. The direction of the team should be a major topic I would think.