Tulo?

[wildbillhiccup]

Just now, Camden_yardbird said:

A lot of people think that because the Orioles are rebuilding that they must play only young players and any movement away from that would be stupid and tantamount to the superficial "competitive" teams they used to trot out with milquetoast middling free agent talent manning many positions on the field.

The truth is, rebuilding teams usually identify one or two buy low, rebound, sell high players to roster every season.  Signed to low value 1 or 2 year contracts, these players can help but almost never can they hurt.

Hitting on these players speeds along the rebuilding process, which would otherwise just be predicated on draft classes and international signings.

I think it's perfectly valid to ask if Tulo is one of those candidates.  His pedigree is of being the best shortstop in the game.  As even a competent shortstop with a little power and a halfway return to his former OBP he could not something at the trade deadline.  

I think it's far to early to say he is the best candidate.  We still have a lot of free agents to shake out of the tree before we get to Tulo.

I didn't say that at all. I was just making the point that you can't use retooling to justify the Jays releasing Tulo then turn around and say a team who's in the exact same position should sign him. Tulo was a good player. No one is arguing that. But the emphasis is on was. You don't get less injury prone as you age and he's ALWAYS been injury prone. The odds of him playing enough games to string together a good season and of them being able to flip him at the deadline are very very very small. That's the reality of the situation. 

[interloper]

I am endlessly fascinated by people who think we should just cut Davis' $90 million salary right now. When has that ever happened to a healthy player?

It would be like when we extended Adam Jones for $90 million, the biggest extension in Orioles history, but then immediately released him. It's nearly One Hundred Million Dollars that you just flush down the toilet and the player is in his early 30s and healthy. It's not going to happen folks! It would be unprecedented! I get that he sucks and is likely to never be good again. But you wait AT LEAST one more year, and almost certainly two more years.

[wildbillhiccup]

5 minutes ago, interloper said:

I'm not saying we should go sign him, I'm just saying we don't know if he can't play and I disagreed with what weams was saying. I do hear some murmurs now that he had some trouble coming back from the surgery so perhaps he can't play after all. His agent thinks otherwise, of course, based on his comments.

The fact is, teams cut players for different reasons, not just health.

The Orioles are not simply retooling. They are undergoing an entire organizational shift. Releasing Davis would be great, but it solves nothing in the short or even medium term. Removing Trumbo from the roster is both much easier and just as beneficial. Davis is only blocking Mancini or Stewart, depending on how you look at it. It's also 1B/DH, not SS. 

The Jays probably have some young players they want to get in there and are fine to eat the salary. But $90 million? Sorry, no team just does that. We're stuck with Davis for a little while longer.

Teams don't eat $35M unless they're convinced a player is D.O.N.E. The fact that the Jays were willing to eat that salary tells me all I need to know. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, interloper said:

I am endlessly fascinated by people who think we should just cut Davis' $90 million salary right now. When has that ever happened to a healthy player?

It would be like when we extended Adam Jones for $90 million, the biggest extension in Orioles history, but then immediately released him. It's nearly One Hundred Million Dollars that you just flush down the toilet and the player is in his early 30s and healthy. It's not going to happen folks! It would be unprecedented! I get that he sucks and is likely to never be good again. But you wait AT LEAST one more year, and almost certainly two more years.

The money is GONE either way.

Red Sox ate big money on Panda and HamRam.  Angels ate big money with Hamilton.

 

[interloper]

Just now, wildbillhiccup said:

Teams don't eat $35M unless they're convinced a player is D.O.N.E. The fact that the Jays were willing to eat that salary tells me all I need to know. 

Sure, but teams have eaten that similar amounts for healthy players.

NO team has eaten Davis' amount for a healthy player who is not in trouble with the law.

[wildbillhiccup]

Just now, interloper said:

Sure, but teams have eaten that similar amounts for healthy players.

NO team has eaten Davis' amount for a healthy player who is not in trouble with the law.

We're having two different conversations here. Tulo has nothing to do with Davis. 

[interloper]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

The money is GONE either way.

Red Sox ate big money on Panda and HamRam.  Angels ate big money with Hamilton.

 

I understand that. It's never happened, though. Not for a player of Davis' age, fitness, health, and legal standing. 

The money is gone, but the player is healthy  and you have a wealth of new data/techniques coming in. He's blocking nobody. The team will open up a spot at 1B/DH/LF in one year at MOST - probably sooner - when Trumbo is gone. There's just no good reason to cut him right now. The season is over before it's begun. Therefore, you take a crack at Davis and if you fix him even a little bit, it's a huge success story and confirmation of your methods. 

[interloper]

1 minute ago, wildbillhiccup said:

We're having two different conversations here. Tulo has nothing to do with Davis. 

Fair enough. My only point re: Tulo, who is most likely indeed done, was to rebut weams' point that teams ONLY cut that salary if the player is done. Not true.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, interloper said:

I understand that. It's never happened, though. Not for a player of Davis' age, fitness, health, and legal standing. 

The money is gone, but the player is healthy  and you have a wealth of new data/techniques coming in. He's blocking nobody. The team will open up a spot at 1B/DH/LF in one year at MOST - probably sooner - when Trumbo is gone. There's just no good reason to cut him right now. The season is over before it's begun. Therefore, you take a crack at Davis and if you fix him even a little bit, it's a huge success story and confirmation of your methods. 

He's using up a roster spot.

Btw no one is suggesting they cut him any earlier then the end of spring training.

[25 Nuggets]

To answer the OP, I don't think Tulo is the kind of guy the team is going to bring in.  I do believe they will bring in some veterans with the hope of flipping them, but they're not going to be so high profile.  And I imagine they'll be younger too.  Chances are better for a 29-30 year old to have a bounce-back season than a 34-35 year old.

[interloper]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

He's using up a roster spot.

Btw no one is suggesting they cut him any earlier then the end of spring training.

Still way too early. No one rebuilds batting mechanics that fast. 

And what roster spot? Whose? DJ Stewart? Joey Rickard? You can just bench the guy if you want the spot in the lineup. Nothing really matters in 2019, certainly not one fringe-y prospect that you might want on the 25-man roster THIS YEAR for whatever reason. 

Trumbo will be gone by July and it's the same thing. There's just no way new management comes in and immediately cuts a guy before seeing if they can fix him for at least one year. I mean it's just an insane thought, I'm sorry. It's insane. It has never been done in the entirety of the sport. You give the guy at minimum one year. After that? Fair game, IMO, because Elias would have a sense about the player at that point. But you're likely going to give him a second year, because not a lot matters in 2020 either. 

I understand it would feel good to fans because the contract was bad and it's a joke around baseball. But to claim "roster spot" as the reason to eat $90 million in a likely 100-loss season? Please. 

[bpilktree]

Tulo blamed it a lot on the Jays turf and Buck would rest guys a lot or DH them on that turf as well.  It may be worth a gamble to see if getting him off that turf would help keep him healthier if it is for under 2 million or so.  

[interloper]

6 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

To answer the OP, I don't think Tulo is the kind of guy the team is going to bring in.  I do believe they will bring in some veterans with the hope of flipping them, but they're not going to be so high profile.  And I imagine they'll be younger too.  Chances are better for a 29-30 year old to have a bounce-back season than a 34-35 year old.

OP agrees! 

[bpilktree]

HanRam had just a year left on his contract and he was more cut because he was taking up a spot and some issues in the clubhouse then his on field performance.  He was still hitting .250s with OBP of .319 so it wasn't like he was awful.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, interloper said:

Still way too early. No one rebuilds batting mechanics that fast. 

And what roster spot? Whose? DJ Stewart? Joey Rickard? You can just bench the guy if you want the spot in the lineup. Nothing really matters in 2019, certainly not one fringe-y prospect that you might want on the 25-man roster THIS YEAR for whatever reason. 

Trumbo will be gone by July and it's the same thing. There's just no way new management comes in and immediately cuts a guy before seeing if they can fix him for at least one year. I mean it's just an insane thought, I'm sorry. It's insane. It has never been done in the entirety of the sport. You give the guy at minimum one year. After that? Fair game, IMO, because Elias would have a sense about the player at that point. But you're likely going to give him a second year, because not a lot matters in 2020 either. 

They will know by the end of spring training if Davis is even making an actual effort to evolve.

He's using up a 25 and 40 man roster spot.  That also probably means that Mancini ends up in the outfield which is not good for anyone.

Davis had all of last year, he had all of 2017.

What more do we need to see if there are not major differences in spring training?

You do know the Angels ate most of Hamilton's 80 million remaining right?  Is the Davis deal really a big step up from that?

I am continually amazed that folks think that just because something hasn't been done doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do.  Davis isn't going to contribute to a winning team in Baltimore, he isn't going to make himself tradeable.  The only gain you have by keeping him on the roster is you don't have to pay someone else 555K for the season.