Second guessing Hyde

[Sessh]

I don't think he put him in knowing he would fail, but he has failed to understand his player and what he needs. I am shocked that he put Givens in there again tonight and he waited until there were two guys on base to bring him in to get two outs. He brought him in to a situation with more pressure than he would have just starting the inning himself. I just think he is mismanaging Givens right now. He needs some chances to build his confidence back up. I'm not against using him at all, but use him in the seventh for awhile or something and try Kline in the ninth. Givens looked like a broken man tonight after blowing the game. Hyde simply can not keep sending him out to close at this point or he's going to break him. Givens can be good, but he needs to get out of the kitchen for awhile until he feels confident again. Hyde set Givens up to fail tonight by not reading the situation properly. JMO. Hopefully, he can read it better now.

Let's see what Kline can do.

[Sessh]

34 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I disagree, I think it's a couple of things:

First, lack of options.  On that, we all agree.

Two, I think Hyde is a good guy.  I think he means well.  What I was trying to say is that I think he wants to show Givens that he still has faith in him and wants to get him out there to see if he can do well.  And that's not what Givens needs right now.

I don't think he felt that Givens was going to fail and sent him out there anyway.  

Yup, nail on the head.

[WillyM]

43 minutes ago, Sessh said:

I don't think he put him in knowing he would fail, but he has failed to understand his player and what he needs. I am shocked that he put Givens in there again tonight and he waited until there were two guys on base to bring him in to get two outs. He brought him in to a situation with more pressure than he would have just starting the inning himself. I just think he is mismanaging Givens right now. He needs some chances to build his confidence back up. I'm not against using him at all, but use him in the seventh for awhile or something and try Kline in the ninth. Givens looked like a broken man tonight after blowing the game. Hyde simply can not keep sending him out to close at this point or he's going to break him. Givens can be good, but he needs to get out of the kitchen for awhile until he feels confident again. Hyde set Givens up to fail tonight by not reading the situation properly. JMO. Hopefully, he can read it better now.

Let's see what Kline can do.

Kline retired the last two batters in the eighth and the first batter in the ninth.  IIRC, at least one of those three batters was a lefty swinger and the TV announcers made note of the fact that lefty batters were 1-for-19 against Kline this year.

The next batter was a righty and he got a single.  The next batter after him was another lefty.

At that point the choice was to either bring Fry in for a lefty-lefty matchup or leave Kline in there, even though he's a righty, because he's done so well against lefties.  Fry had pretty good statistics against lefties, too, but not as good as 1-for-19.

And, as we know, the decision was to bring Fry in.  Fry couldn't find the strike zone, and after that, Hyde didn't have much choice but to bring Givens in.  Givens couldn't find the strike zone, either, and after he walked in the tying run, up came Wolters, who had spent the whole previous at-bat standing almost directly behind home plate timing Givens' pitches, and he produced the game-ending sacrifice fly.

Boy, I wish we could have seen what Kline could have done against that lefty batter with one out and one on in the ninth.

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, Sessh said:

I don't think he put him in knowing he would fail, but he has failed to understand his player and what he needs. I am shocked that he put Givens in there again tonight and he waited until there were two guys on base to bring him in to get two outs. He brought him in to a situation with more pressure than he would have just starting the inning himself. I just think he is mismanaging Givens right now. He needs some chances to build his confidence back up. I'm not against using him at all, but use him in the seventh for awhile or something and try Kline in the ninth. Givens looked like a broken man tonight after blowing the game. Hyde simply can not keep sending him out to close at this point or he's going to break him. Givens can be good, but he needs to get out of the kitchen for awhile until he feels confident again. Hyde set Givens up to fail tonight by not reading the situation properly. JMO. Hopefully, he can read it better now.

Let's see what Kline can do.

If Fry does his job, it's 1 out with a man on base, with Givens matched up against RHB's. It only became high pressure when Fry didn't get his man. Hyde was playing matchups. It didn't work out but doesn't mean it was the wrong play.

[Philip]

44 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

If Fry does his job, it's 1 out with a man on base, with Givens matched up against RHB's. It only became high pressure when Fry didn't get his man. Hyde was playing matchups. It didn't work out but doesn't mean it was the wrong play.

It was wrong to bring Givens into a high-pressure situation. There was no reason not to expect failure. Leave Bleier in a bit longer, leave Fry in a bit longer, even bring in Phillips(shudder) but don’t bring in Givens. Make the whole game plan  in anticipation of NOT using Givens. 

It did not help that Armstrong was terrible, but those are the kind of things that managers have to plan for.

[thezeroes]

Prior to this game, Givens has had 9 Inherited Runners of which ZERO have scored.  That is darn near perfect.

[Natty]

Our defense makes errors or blunders almost every game. Missing the cutoff man... That's little league stuff.

Base running blunders on a routine basis...More little league stuff.

Who's  to blame? 

[Philip]

5 hours ago, thezeroes said:

Prior to this game, Givens has had 9 Inherited Runners of which ZERO have scored.  That is darn near perfect.

Go check the box score for the 24th. No inherited runners, just two of his own.

[thezeroes]

38 minutes ago, Philip said:

Go check the box score for the 24th. No inherited runners, just two of his own.

Your initial premise was as to WHY GIVIENS.  I gave my answer even though not to your liking.

[Philip]

5 minutes ago, thezeroes said:

Your initial premise was as to WHY GIVIENS.  I gave my answer even though not to your liking.

 

5 minutes ago, thezeroes said:

Your initial premise was as to WHY GIVIENS.  I gave my answer even though not to your liking.

I agree that Inherited runners scoring is a very significant stat, probably the second most important stat for a reliever. My point is that with Givens is giving up too many runs, whether his own or others, to be dependable. He failed spectacularly on Friday, and equally so yesterday. And lately overall.

[DrungoHazewood]

14 hours ago, Philip said:

It was wrong to bring Givens into a high-pressure situation. There was no reason not to expect failure.

There was no reason to expect any of the other options to do any better.  Bleier has allowed 12 runs in 10 innings.  Fry couldn't get his guy out, and has allowed three runs in his last 4.2 innings.  Givens has the best track record of any O's reliever.  He's slumping, but you work out of slumps by pitching.  Not by throwing 6th innings while you let Evan Phillips and his 9.85 MLB ERA pitch the 9th.

[Philip]

33 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

There was no reason to expect any of the other options to do any better.  Bleier has allowed 12 runs in 10 innings.  Fry couldn't get his guy out, and has allowed three runs in his last 4.2 innings.  Givens has the best track record of any O's reliever.  He's slumping, but you work out of slumps by pitching.  Not by throwing 6th innings while you let Evan Phillips and his 9.85 MLB ERA pitch the 9th.

Givens has been terrible lately. Really terrible. Anybody else would have been a better choice.

[jrobb21613]

I know the results aren’t there and some in game decisions have been questionable but love his attitude and think he’s a great fit for this rebuild hopefully we will start getting some better production from our pitching.

[Philip]

4 hours ago, jrobb21613 said:

I know the results aren’t there and some in game decisions have been questionable but love his attitude and think he’s a great fit for this rebuild hopefully we will start getting some better production from our pitching.

Hope is a beautiful thing.

[Philip]

Hyde needs to learn how to use his bullpen better. Maybe it’s just that he has a terrible bullpen, but I feel that a lot of games We’re lost because of illogical bullpen choices.