Nick...killing it in the 2 spot.

[Old#5fan]

And the hilarious thing is that few disagree with the above, but the above is not what people are correcting you on. No one has said Markakis has a better arm than Clemente or that he has won a gold glove. Many have said he plays gold glove defense (and if you actually read the postings you respond to, you'd know that I said I don't think he does, though he's close). You argue that a person can't play gold glove defense unless he wins the gold glove, which has been shown over and over to be illogical. Heck, by your reasoning Clemente didn't play gold glove defense the year he won his first gold glove, since at that time he hadn't won the gold glove!!! Did his defensive level retroactively go up when he did win the gold glove? Of course not; gold glove defense is a description of level, not of winning a specific award. -Larrytt

No its not. It is a description of the award for best defensive player at your chosen position. Clemente did play Gold Glove Defense because he in fact won it his first year. However, for anyone to state it while he was in the midst of the season or even before the awards came out was simply an opinion and not a proven fact. It may or may not have been true although in Clemente's case it was, Markakis it probably won't be unless he gets it after this season. AGain, you are totally wrong here.

[Mackus]

He's not real, right? He's a character. No way anyone actually behaves this way. He's fake, right?

Exactly right. Took me way too long to realize it as well.

Theres some guy sitting at his computer at home just laughing constantly at the reactions he's getting here (many from myself over the last few months, I'll add).

[larrytt]

No its not. It is a description of the award for best defensive player at your chosen position. Clemente did play Gold Glove Defense because he in fact won it his first year. However, for anyone to state it while he was in the midst of the season or even before the awards came out was simply an opinion and not a proven fact. It may or may not have been true although in Clemente's case it was, Markakis is probably won't be unless he gets it after this season. AGain, you are totally wrong here.

You have encapsulated above the sheer illogic of your beliefs, where you can't tell the difference between "level" and "award," or the illogic of arbitrarily defining things as fact or opinion based on what will support a pre-conceived opinion. It's all been addressed over and over; no point in responding again. Have a nice day.

-Larrytt

[DrungoHazewood]

Yeah, I did mean paragraph two. If I had a player like Brooks Robinson whom I did not want to possibly prematurely end or ruin their career by playing them where the would instinctively dive for balls causing further potential back damage, yet could DH them safely, I would certainly do the latter. That is exactly what I am talking about.

Completely agree. That's why I think Rick Ankiel deserves the National League Cy Young award this year. Until his mental distress that made him unable to throw strikes he was kind of a second coming of Sandy Koufax. Since he's temporarily unable to throw strikes, but may be able to return to his former glory one day, we're more than justified in giving him every Cy Young award until he retires. He's just playing the outfield to keep healthy and in shape until such time that he may be able to pitch again. Same thing as you're saying.

[hammer310]

This is a pretty Hilarious thread.

I didn't think anyone could ever be this clueless.

Something tells me he is just doing this on purpose, because someone really cant be that dumb.

[larrytt]

Clemente did play Gold Glove Defense because he in fact won it his first year. (

By the way, you are wrong (again); Clemente didn't win the gold glove his first year. He didn't win it until his 7th year, strangely coinciding with when his hitting improved. (Gee, why would that be, and what does that have to do with defense level?) But as usual, why let facts get in the way of your pre-set conclusions? Why do you make things like this up?

-Larrytt

[DuffMan]

Correct me if I am wrong, but apparently there are no minimum number of games required per year to win it.

Fact: We've been trying to do that for the past 14 pages.

Opinion: We could try and correct you for another 14 pages and you still probably won't figure it out.

[hammer310]

Seriously dude, do you even follow the Orioles or are you strictly on OldFan patrol? Although I think OldFan is looney tunes about a great variety of things, you're just plain stalker-ish with him.

So that means your stalker-ish with following what Brobinsonfan says. It goes either way dude.

[BRobinsonfan]

Maybe Bill James should have complained to the committee and get them to implement a minimum game requirement then. I have nothing to do with their rules.

Actually... he sorta did... in his New Bill James Historical Abstract he offers a reasoned critique of the current selection criteria and makes specific suggestions about how to improve it. You can (but won't) read about it here: http://books.google.com/books?id=mUzTJ4-8N0EC&pg=RA1-PA439&lpg=RA1-PA439&dq=Palmeiro+gold+glove+1999+controversy&source=web&ots=UEil8SnfOD&sig=s2ksL_AtQWzZqI_OqmYJ5KMdcGQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

He writes, "The Gold Glove is decided by what could be called an unconstrained plurality, meaning: 1) A voter can vote for anybody. 2) If the top vote-getter gets 15% of the vote, he wins, the same as if he had received 80%. A voting structure like this is an open invitation to an eccentric outcome. If the United States were to use a system like this to elect the President, the absolutely certain result would be that someone like David Duke, Donald Trump or Warren Beatty would be elected President. If you can win an election with 15% of the vote, sooner or later somebody will. An unconstrained plurality vote gives an opening to someone or something who has a strong appeal to a limited number of people."

[Old#5fan]

You have encapsulated above the sheer illogic of your beliefs, where you can't tell the difference between "level" and "award," or the illogic of arbitrarily defining things as fact or opinion based on what will support a pre-conceived opinion. It's all been addressed over and over; no point in responding again. Have a nice day.

-Larrytt

If you are addressing the player's level as "equivilent to winning an award" (in this case a Gold Glove, it is merely an opinion until if and when he wins such an award.

You could claim that Huff is hitting like a Batting Title Winner this season, but that is just an unsubstantiated opinion unless or until he would actually win the batting title. Same thing.

[Old#5fan]

By the way, you are wrong (again); Clemente didn't win the gold glove his first year. He didn't win it until his 7th year, strangely coinciding with when his hitting improved. (Gee, why would that be, and what does that have to do with defense level?) But as usual, why let facts get in the way of your pre-set conclusions? Why do you make things like this up?

-Larrytt

I meant the first year he won it not that he won it his first year. The Gold Glove should have nothing to do with hitting and I don't believe it does despite the goofy Palmeiro voting that year.

I could me wrong but I believe Mark Belanger won quite a few and couldn't hit much at all. So don't give me it is connected with hitting as its not.

[larrytt]

If you are addressing the player's level as "equivilent to winning an award" (in this case a Gold Glove, it is merely an opinion until if and when he wins such an award.

You could claim that Huff is hitting like a Batting Title Winner this season, but that is just an unsubstantiated opinion unless or until he would actually win the batting title. Same thing.

And when someone ways that Markakis is playing gold glove defense, that's his opinion. Yet you claim that by posting this, he is claiming it to be a fact. That's where the first link of your string of illogic starts. Don't you read the very postings you respond to, where people have over and Over and OVER said that "gold glove defense" is an opinion, and you have argued that stating that is false, which (by definition of opinion about a subjective subject) it is not?

-Larrytt

[Frobby]

In the hopes of elevating this discussion:

Markakis leads all AL right fielders in games played, games started, innings, total chances, putouts and assists.

Among those who have started at least half their team's games in RF (I feel that's a reasonable cutoff), he is tied for 3rd in fielding percentage, he is 4th in range factor, and he is 5th in zone rating. There is no RF who is ahead of him in all three of these categories. Only two players are ahead of Nick in both range categories, and both of them have played far fewer games and have very low assist totals. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=7&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=85&sortColumn=fullInningsPlayed

Among the 7 right fielders listed by The Hardball Times, Markakis ranks 2nd in Revised Zone Rating and 1st in Outs Outside Zone. http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=fielding&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=zone_rating&direction=DESC&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B%5D=2008&league_filter%5B%5D=1&pos_filter%5B%5D=9&Submit=Submit

Overall, I'd say that if Nick won the Gold Glove this year, nobody could say there was another RF who was clearly more deserving. On the other hand, his case isn't so overwhelming that I'd feel he was ripped off if he didn't win a GG, so long as another good candidate was selected. Many years, at least two GG's go to centerfielders, sometimes all three. My guess would be that if Nick doesn't win the GG, no other RF will, either.

[hammer310]

If you are addressing the player's level as "equivilent to winning an award" (in this case a Gold Glove, it is merely an opinion until if and when he wins such an award.

You could claim that Huff is hitting like a Batting Title Winner this season, but that is just an unsubstantiated opinion unless or until he would actually win the batting title. Same thing.

Say this year Hamilton ends up with 40 home runs, 140 rbi's, and bats .305.

Say this year Ramirez ends up with 40 homers, 140 rbi's, and bats .305.

Hamilton wins the MVP award and therefore is a MVP type player.

Does that not make Manny a MVP type player cause he didnt win it?

[Old#5fan]

Completely agree. That's why I think Rick Ankiel deserves the National League Cy Young award this year. Until his mental distress that made him unable to throw strikes he was kind of a second coming of Sandy Koufax. Since he's temporarily unable to throw strikes, but may be able to return to his former glory one day, we're more than justified in giving him every Cy Young award until he retires. He's just playing the outfield to keep healthy and in shape until such time that he may be able to pitch again. Same thing as you're saying.

That is not at all what I am saying, not even close. What I am saying is Brooks Robinson was hands down the greatest fielding third baseman of his era and IMO ever. If he only played 27 games during the middle of his Gold Glove Career, due to protecting him from a permanent injury by utilizing him as a DH (thank goodness this never actually had to occur) would it make him any less of a Gold Glove fielder? Especially, if he was able to return to third base full time the next season and continue his Gold Glove level of play.

I think not.